I'm just using it to experiment with nurms (I'm in general very much a beginner at this) and I think I get it but for this one thing. When I apply them the area around the hole juts up as evidenced here:
What I essentially want to do is have the box hole retain its shape when I apply the nurms.
I've set the "insides" of the hole to separate groups (I've set the nurms setting to separate by smoothing groups). Silly question perhaps but I'm really stumped here.
Any ideas? Hopefully I explained my issue well enough. Let me know if I can fill in any additional info needed.
Thank you in advance:
-efx-
Kamikazee@Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:52 pm :
Is there some way to visualize the control points of the nurms? Similar to Doom 3's patches, such surfaces should be possible to tweak by changing the surface's control points. They seem to work alright at the edges of the torus, but I guess that they are not correct where you cut the hole.
To correct it there, you might need to insert more control points just like you would add a new row to a patch's control grid.
6th Venom@Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:06 am :
Try to click on your "meshsmooth" modifier (i think you used it to apply NURMS smoothing right?), then down and check the "Show cage" box, and try to move manually your points.
What i thing i'd do to achieve this form, is to create a full tube first, meshsmooth it, and then substract the "cube" form to it.
Cause NURMS modifier don't know how you want a form, it just smooth as wall as it can, maybe try to use NURBS surfaces to make it like you want.
Lumpengnom@Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:42 am :
Here´s a tutorial which illustrates very good how it´s done. Check out the meshsmooth section of it.
You basicly have to add edges close to the edges which define the hole. On every side. This can be very Poly intensive and is probably not very recomendable for gaming models. However it´s very useful for other things.
Personally i would not meshsmooth this object at all. If you want the tube smoother simply give it some more segments in the beginning. If you want the edges of the hole to be smooth you´re better off with chamfering them than going through the whole process of adding more edgeloops required for reasonable meshsmoothing.
You can use the creasing method but in my oppinion it´s not very useful because it´s quite a lot of work and rarely gives good results.
obihb@Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:21 pm :
Making something like this using subdevisions is hard and probably will never really work right, unless the tube is really high poly to start with. I mean to cut a square hole in a round surface.
So in this particular case it would be easier to create the tube at it's highest res mesh and then cut in the hole. This way the hole does not affect the tube surface at all. You can then use chamfer or one of those method to create the rounded looking edge of the hole without mesh smoothing, if you wanted.
efx@Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:37 am :
I just wanted to say thank you guys for you quick and helpful answers! I learned a lot
Thanks again!
efx@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:33 am :
Hi guys, I have a sort of follow up question and I didn't think it needed it's own topic so I'd thought I'd put it here.
I have a test object in which I have an extruded section of a meshsmoothed object and it pretty much looks like I want it but for one thing and that one thing is really annoying me.
I think I can better illustrate it through imagery so here goes:
Here is the basic object with the extrusion:
Here it is with the meshsmooth:
So far so good. Well, I thought I wanted the corners in the extrusion to be a little less round so I did this:
You can see the vertical cuts there. But when I smooth it like this:
I get these little "pinched" sections so to speak. Here's a better view of how the issue looks:
See where the arrows are pointing? I'm sure my excessive imagery illustrates what I'm trying to do so does anyone have any idea on how I can fix it? Thanks again guys, the links and ideas in this thread has already helped me a lot.
Thanks in advance:)
Lumpengnom@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:59 am :
I need to see a bigger part of the base mesh.
6th Venom@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:00 pm :
You should try this one. (made in Ps, so i didin't tested it.)
In your exemple, did you used "cut"?
Sometimes "cut" or "slice" create extra hidden triangles, or extra vertices on edges, so for low poly works, it's still better to do all by hand.
efx@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:28 pm :
6th Venom:
Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it but it doesn't seem to do it.
Here's how I cut it and here's how it looks smoothed:
Maybe I'm not doing it right?
Lumpengnom@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:33 pm :
Mesh Smooth doesn´t like triangles.
But i need to see a larger part of the pic to tell more.
6th Venom@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:41 pm :
@Lumpengnom: Why do you say that about triangles and meshsmooth? i always work only with triangles, cause sometimes, like here maybe, there is little triangles created that you don't know about when you use faces.
@efx: from your last screens i'll say that you need to to re-weld your vertices, cause it's impossible that backfaces can pass the frontfaces of your border without moving top corner vertices, except if they are separate vertices. (see the last screen before "Maybe i'm not doing it right?" to understand what i mean...)
So i just suggest you to unsmooth, select all your vertices and make a "weld" (in editmesh or editpoly) with a very low value like 0,005, and check if the selected vertices count down.
Then redo your meshsmooth and check if there is any change.
Also, be sure to apply tris/faces/polies smoothgroups (in edit mesh), and then check the "keep smoothgroups" in the meshsmooth modifier to keep your form right.
Except all that, maybe you did something wrong previously too...
obihb@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:39 pm :
I disagree about this method. The reason why I don't think it'll work is that cutting edges in the inside of the hole but not the outside will make so there are less verts on the outside. So now when it smooths it does a "heavier" interpolation on the outside and less on the inside. So this is why the mesh cut in like that. The inner verts force it to stay more square but there are no verts outside to do so, it get rounded from the outside.
To create this kind of hole will be hard to get perfect if at all possible. It's the same reason as before with your previous posts. It can be done to a certain degree but what you probably won't get is a nice square hole that still conforms to the cylindrical shape and has perfect blending corners.
As I mentioned before, the best way to get this is to use a very high poly cylinder to begin with. So then make the hole and then you can turbo smooth after that once or twice to round off the corners of the hole and it'll still conform perfectly with the cylinder.
Example...
efx@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:56 pm :
Just wanted to say thank you all for the help, I'm at work atm but as soon as I get home I'm going to try these suggestions out.
Thanks again.
Lumpengnom@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:21 pm :
6th Venom wrote:
@Lumpengnom: Why do you say that about triangles and meshsmooth? i always work only with triangles, cause sometimes, like here maybe, there is little triangles created that you don't know about when you use faces.
While triangles (ngons are even worse) not necessarily cause errors they often are a source of problems.
In these pictures you can see what i mean. This is three times the same object. In the first you see the base mesh. It´s simply a cube with some extra edges near to control mesh smooth. on top i added an edge which makes one quad into two triangles.
In the second image we see the object with mesh smooth applied. Display is set to Isolines, meaning that we can´t see the actual mesh but only the edges that were created before applying mesh smooth. We see that several abnormalities occure where the triangles were.
In the third image i turned off isoline display so that we can see the real mesh we now have with all edges and the errors become even more apparent.
When modelling with meshsmooth having as few tris and ngons as possible is the way to go.
I´m not quite sure since i can´t see the mesh properly but something like this should probably do the trick:
Lumpengnom@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:36 pm :
Ok, forget the above. It will have to look like this. It´s a total poly wastage and is suggest you go with chamfering but since you mean this to be an exercise it makes sence since you can learn stuff´:
First and second pictures are without and with MS. Third picture is zoomed in on a corner, so you can see better where you need to add edgeloops.
6th Venom@Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:53 pm :
@Lumpengnom about tris & MS: Ok, didn't noticed that, cause usually work on organic-like (human-monsters-etc), so i don't really need to keep every thing paralelle/perpendicular cuts. thank for the tip.
modern@Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:53 am :
Doom3world • View topic - Beginner nurms question. * new question *
I'm just using it to experiment with nurms (I'm in general very much a beginner at this) and I think I get it but for this one thing. When I apply them the area around the hole juts up as evidenced here:
What I essentially want to do is have the box hole retain its shape when I apply the nurms.
I've set the "insides" of the hole to separate groups (I've set the nurms setting to separate by smoothing groups). Silly question perhaps but I'm really stumped here.
Any ideas? Hopefully I explained my issue well enough. Let me know if I can fill in any additional info needed.
Thank you in advance:
-efx-
Last edited by efx on Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Is there some way to visualize the control points of the nurms? Similar to Doom 3's patches, such surfaces should be possible to tweak by changing the surface's control points. They seem to work alright at the edges of the torus, but I guess that they are not correct where you cut the hole.
To correct it there, you might need to insert more control points just like you would add a new row to a patch's control grid.
_________________ "And remember, respect is everything" - GTA2
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:42 am Posts: 1172 Location: somewhere over the rainbow...
Try to click on your "meshsmooth" modifier (i think you used it to apply NURMS smoothing right?), then down and check the "Show cage" box, and try to move manually your points.
What i thing i'd do to achieve this form, is to create a full tube first, meshsmooth it, and then substract the "cube" form to it.
Cause NURMS modifier don't know how you want a form, it just smooth as wall as it can, maybe try to use NURBS surfaces to make it like you want.
_________________ If that smell like a shit & look like a shit... it's a shit.
Here´s a tutorial which illustrates very good how it´s done. Check out the meshsmooth section of it.
You basicly have to add edges close to the edges which define the hole. On every side. This can be very Poly intensive and is probably not very recomendable for gaming models. However it´s very useful for other things.
Personally i would not meshsmooth this object at all. If you want the tube smoother simply give it some more segments in the beginning. If you want the edges of the hole to be smooth you´re better off with chamfering them than going through the whole process of adding more edgeloops required for reasonable meshsmoothing.
You can use the creasing method but in my oppinion it´s not very useful because it´s quite a lot of work and rarely gives good results.
Making something like this using subdevisions is hard and probably will never really work right, unless the tube is really high poly to start with. I mean to cut a square hole in a round surface.
So in this particular case it would be easier to create the tube at it's highest res mesh and then cut in the hole. This way the hole does not affect the tube surface at all. You can then use chamfer or one of those method to create the rounded looking edge of the hole without mesh smoothing, if you wanted.
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:53 am Posts: 815 Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi guys, I have a sort of follow up question and I didn't think it needed it's own topic so I'd thought I'd put it here.
I have a test object in which I have an extruded section of a meshsmoothed object and it pretty much looks like I want it but for one thing and that one thing is really annoying me.
I think I can better illustrate it through imagery so here goes:
Here is the basic object with the extrusion:
Here it is with the meshsmooth:
So far so good. Well, I thought I wanted the corners in the extrusion to be a little less round so I did this:
You can see the vertical cuts there. But when I smooth it like this:
I get these little "pinched" sections so to speak. Here's a better view of how the issue looks:
See where the arrows are pointing? I'm sure my excessive imagery illustrates what I'm trying to do so does anyone have any idea on how I can fix it? Thanks again guys, the links and ideas in this thread has already helped me a lot.
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:42 am Posts: 1172 Location: somewhere over the rainbow...
You should try this one. (made in Ps, so i didin't tested it.)
In your exemple, did you used "cut"?
Sometimes "cut" or "slice" create extra hidden triangles, or extra vertices on edges, so for low poly works, it's still better to do all by hand.
_________________ If that smell like a shit & look like a shit... it's a shit.
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:42 am Posts: 1172 Location: somewhere over the rainbow...
@Lumpengnom: Why do you say that about triangles and meshsmooth? i always work only with triangles, cause sometimes, like here maybe, there is little triangles created that you don't know about when you use faces.
@efx: from your last screens i'll say that you need to to re-weld your vertices, cause it's impossible that backfaces can pass the frontfaces of your border without moving top corner vertices, except if they are separate vertices. (see the last screen before "Maybe i'm not doing it right?" to understand what i mean...)
So i just suggest you to unsmooth, select all your vertices and make a "weld" (in editmesh or editpoly) with a very low value like 0,005, and check if the selected vertices count down.
Then redo your meshsmooth and check if there is any change.
Also, be sure to apply tris/faces/polies smoothgroups (in edit mesh), and then check the "keep smoothgroups" in the meshsmooth modifier to keep your form right.
Except all that, maybe you did something wrong previously too...
_________________ If that smell like a shit & look like a shit... it's a shit.
I disagree about this method. The reason why I don't think it'll work is that cutting edges in the inside of the hole but not the outside will make so there are less verts on the outside. So now when it smooths it does a "heavier" interpolation on the outside and less on the inside. So this is why the mesh cut in like that. The inner verts force it to stay more square but there are no verts outside to do so, it get rounded from the outside.
To create this kind of hole will be hard to get perfect if at all possible. It's the same reason as before with your previous posts. It can be done to a certain degree but what you probably won't get is a nice square hole that still conforms to the cylindrical shape and has perfect blending corners.
As I mentioned before, the best way to get this is to use a very high poly cylinder to begin with. So then make the hole and then you can turbo smooth after that once or twice to round off the corners of the hole and it'll still conform perfectly with the cylinder.
@Lumpengnom: Why do you say that about triangles and meshsmooth? i always work only with triangles, cause sometimes, like here maybe, there is little triangles created that you don't know about when you use faces.
While triangles (ngons are even worse) not necessarily cause errors they often are a source of problems.
In these pictures you can see what i mean. This is three times the same object. In the first you see the base mesh. It´s simply a cube with some extra edges near to control mesh smooth. on top i added an edge which makes one quad into two triangles.
In the second image we see the object with mesh smooth applied. Display is set to Isolines, meaning that we can´t see the actual mesh but only the edges that were created before applying mesh smooth. We see that several abnormalities occure where the triangles were.
In the third image i turned off isoline display so that we can see the real mesh we now have with all edges and the errors become even more apparent.
When modelling with meshsmooth having as few tris and ngons as possible is the way to go.
I´m not quite sure since i can´t see the mesh properly but something like this should probably do the trick:
Ok, forget the above. It will have to look like this. It´s a total poly wastage and is suggest you go with chamfering but since you mean this to be an exercise it makes sence since you can learn stuff´:
First and second pictures are without and with MS. Third picture is zoomed in on a corner, so you can see better where you need to add edgeloops.
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:42 am Posts: 1172 Location: somewhere over the rainbow...
@Lumpengnom about tris & MS: Ok, didn't noticed that, cause usually work on organic-like (human-monsters-etc), so i don't really need to keep every thing paralelle/perpendicular cuts. thank for the tip.
_________________ If that smell like a shit & look like a shit... it's a shit.
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