John Piliger wrote:

Two weeks ago, I presented a young Palestinian, Mohammed Omer, with the 2008 Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism. Awarded in memory of the great US war correspondent, the prize goes to journalists who expose establishment propaganda, or "official drivel", as Gellhorn called it. Mohammed shares the prize of £5,000 with Dahr Jamail. At 24, he is the youngest winner. His citation reads: "Every day, he reports from a war zone, where he is also a prisoner. His homeland, Gaza, is surrounded, starved, attacked, forgotten. He is a profoundly humane witness to one of the great injustices of our time. He is the voice of the voiceless." The eldest of eight, Mohammed has seen most of his siblings killed or wounded or maimed. An Israeli bulldozer crushed his home while the family were inside, seriously injuring his mother. And yet, says a former Dutch ambassador, Jan Wijenberg, "he is a moderating voice, urging Palestinian youth not to court hatred but seek peace with Israel".

Getting Mohammed to London to receive his prize was a major diplomatic operation. Israel has perfidious control over Gaza's borders, and only with a Dutch embassy escort was he allowed out. Last Thursday, on his return journey, he was met at the Allenby Bridge crossing (to Jordan) by a Dutch official, who waited outside the Israeli building, unaware Mohammed had been seized by Shin Bet, Israel's infamous security organisation. Mohammed was told to turn off his mobile and remove the battery. He asked if he could call his embassy escort and was told forcefully he could not. A man stood over his luggage, picking through his documents. "Where's the money?" he demanded. Mohammed produced some US dollars. "Where is the English pound you have?"

"I realised," said Mohammed, "he was after the award stipend for the Martha Gellhorn prize. I told him I didn't have it with me. 'You are lying', he said. I was now surrounded by eight Shin Bet officers, all armed. The man called Avi ordered me to take off my clothes. I had already been through an x-ray machine. I stripped down to my underwear and was told to take off everything. When I refused, Avi put his hand on his gun. I began to cry: 'Why are you treating me this way? I am a human being.' He said, 'This is nothing compared with what you will see now.' He took his gun out, pressing it to my head and with his full body weight pinning me on my side, he forcibly removed my underwear. He then made me do a concocted sort of dance. Another man, who was laughing, said, 'Why are you bringing perfumes?' I replied, 'They are gifts for the people I love'. He said, 'Oh, do you have love in your culture?'

"As they ridiculed me, they took delight most in mocking letters I had received from readers in England. I had now been without food and water and the toilet for 12 hours, and having been made to stand, my legs buckled. I vomited and passed out. All I remember is one of them gouging, scraping and clawing with his nails at the tender flesh beneath my eyes. He scooped my head and dug his fingers in near the auditory nerves between my head and eardrum. The pain became sharper as he dug in two fingers at a time. Another man had his combat boot on my neck, pressing into the hard floor. I lay there for over an hour. The room became a menagerie of pain, sound and terror."

An ambulance was called and told to take Mohammed to a hospital, but only after he had signed a statement indemnifying the Israelis from his suffering in their custody. The Palestinian medic refused, courageously, and said he would contact the Dutch embassy escort. Alarmed, the Israelis let the ambulance go. The Israeli response has been the familiar line that Mohammed was "suspected" of smuggling and "lost his balance" during a "fair" interrogation, Reuters reported yesterday.

Israeli human rights groups have documented the routine torture of Palestinians by Shin Bet agents with "beatings, painful binding, back bending, body stretching and prolonged sleep deprivation". Amnesty has long reported the widespread use of torture by Israel, whose victims emerge as mere shadows of their former selves. Some never return. Israel is high in an international league table for its murder of journalists, especially Palestinian journalists, who receive barely a fraction of the kind of coverage given to the BBC's Alan Johnston.

The Dutch government says it is shocked by Mohammed Omer's treatment. The former ambassador Jan Wijenberg said: "This is by no means an isolated incident, but part of a long-term strategy to demolish Palestinian social, economic and cultural life ... I am aware of the possibility that Mohammed Omer might be murdered by Israeli snipers or bomb attack in the near future."

While Mohammed was receiving his prize in London, the new Israeli ambassador to Britain, Ron Proser, was publicly complaining that many Britons no longer appreciated the uniqueness of Israel's democracy. Perhaps they do now.

John Piliger
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... lliberties

Hm, is that news or just regular behaviour which bumps up every once in a while to conscience? I think it's regular, just exact the way Bin Ladin predicted it would happen in his 2001 tapes.

As a very frequent flyer I would also like to add airport security personnel should get screened more for their mental abilities and social behaviour before getting the key to the x-ray machine. Give an idiot an uniform and this will accelerate his IQ or social abilities meltdown. Just as if evolution instantly sets such a person back to go.

This, thank god, does not apply to all of them and I dare to say not even to most of them. But a percentage of 10% to 20% can ruin everything just like in any buisness.

Propaganda comes from all sides, so what's new?
ps: The Dutch government is shocked about everything, but they never act, other than acting backwards; as if progress is something that has to go back instead of forward.

It's sickening how rarely us Westerners hear about incidence like this that show Israeli brutality towards the Palestinians. Every news organization in Canada is pro-Israel and they always depicted the Israelis as the poor, suffering victims of the evil, crazed Palestinians. I must say when I was younger I bought it hook, line and sinker, until I began to see reports originating out of Arab countries which showed the other side of the story. There was an interesting documentary posted on You Tube that compared the news depictions produced by both countrys' medias on the same incidents, and you'd swear they were talking about two separate instances.

In Canada most diverse ethnic communities live in relative peace, and it's both sad and shocking that this level of hatred exists in our so-called modern, enlightened world. I've heard all the stories of the so-called Jewish conspiracy to control the media in North America, and I've always believed it was just anti-Semite dribble. Yet I ask myself how is it that Israeli censors exercise so much control over news agencies in both America and Canada, especially when one considers the extremes these agencies go to convincing the public of their neutrality? You'd think, with the amount of TV and marketing that North Americans are use to consuming, that they'd know the difference between unbiased news and propaganda, yet it seems they can't. And while I don't hate either the Jewish nor the Palestinian people, seems their leaders are just as selfish and self-serving as most politicians are, and they have no conscience when it comes to exploiting other nations - and their own people - for personal gain.

I'm in Canada but I haven't watched a news broadcast in years, or any television show for that matter. I have seen documentaries that show the inhuman machines that the Israelis use to level the Palestinian houses and such. I understand how being subjected to controlled media creates for a placid population and how it can also create disinterest in the plight of people who have little-to-no voice. I have seen many movies where "machines" have taken over humanity and when I watch those god-awful creations the Israeli army drive around I can't help but think the machines have already taken over, but they're driven by people (usually not Israelis but hired Arabs, btw).

DoV_Tomas wrote:

It's sickening how rarely us Americans hear about incidence like this.

Fixed for truth... :mrgreen:

(sorry for misquoting).

Luckilly, European news is a bit less biased than American news so this is the kind of stuff that's been in our newspapers for years. It's common knowledge that both sides are brutal against each other. The Palestinians by use of terrorism, the Israeli's by use of superior Military Force. A dutch woman was driven over by an Israeli bulldozer during a peace rally in the Gaza.... common knowledge.

I'm like Brian and gave up on watching broadcast television years ago, but sadly we're in the definite minority. I know the BBC seems to be pretty unbiased and often the reports I see on You Tube are from their programming. And while I'm grateful these sources are available, it seems Viacom or some other greedy corporation will shut You Tube down soon, and replace it by giving us more mental laxative and ten channels of Simpson re-runs all in a $39.99/month schlock "value" bundle". Sorry if I offended any Simpsons fans out there, but it's troubling when I come across a group of adults at a party, and while each knows almost every adventure or beer story Homer was involved in, or they can quote out of almost any Seinfeld episode, damned if any of them can tell you about what's going on in the Middle East. Since TV broadcasters air what is popular, it gives an idea of what is important to the general public considering out of the 500 channels available on TV, there doesn't seem to be a single honest news agency willing to tell the truth.

Terrorism is a newspeak word used to illegitimize the enemy and their grievances, larger more technologically advanced, "civilized" countries engage in "terrorism" on a regular basis as well. In America, you hear about a lot of stuff that goes on, sadly it's only one side of the story and they put such a "spin" on it as to alleviate you from from doing anything dangerous like forming your own opinion of it.

DoV_Tomas wrote:

I'm like Brian and gave up on watching broadcast television years ago, but sadly we're in the definite minority. I know the BBC seems to be pretty unbiased and often the reports I see on You Tube are from their programming. And while I'm grateful these sources are available, it seems Viacom or some other greedy corporation will shut You Tube down soon, and replace it by giving us more mental laxative and ten channels of Simpson re-runs all in a $39.99/month schlock "value" bundle". Sorry if I offended any Simpsons fans out there, but it's troubling when I come across a group of adults at a party, and while each knows almost every adventure or beer story Homer was involved in, or they can quote out of almost any Seinfeld episode, damned if any of them can tell you about what's going on in the Middle East. Since TV broadcasters air what is popular, it gives an idea of what is important to the general public considering out of the 500 channels available on TV, there doesn't seem to be a single honest news agency willing to tell the truth.

Forgive the people for wanting some escapsism. It's not like they aren't confronted with reality daily..

What do you want at a party? Deep philosophical discussion about the finer points of the Middle Eastern conflict? Seems to me like your expectations are wrong more than anything. Go to a book club, or library if you want to discuss politics. When people are at a party they might just want to think and talk about fun things. I know I do. I want to talk en be as brainless as possible when at a party. I'm being so damned serious all the rest of the time that I think I deserve some mindless time. So don't judge people by how they react and act at a party, especially not if you are expecting deep political views and expressions, there's a time and a place for everything.

I'm guess I'm really out there to think that people discuss politics and world affairs at parties.

Well okay, substitute the word party for gathering. My issue is not to discuss the goings-on at parties or people's social behavior, but to point to the apparent ignorance of people with regard to the world around them. Furthermore their choices of priorities when it comes to what they information they consume and what is important to them makes me wonder sometimes. I tend to think if people would spend a little less time in front of the boob soaking up the distraction and entertainment as you say, and a bit more time educating themselves and being more active to affect positive change, that our world would be better for it.

DoV_Tomas wrote:

I'm guess I'm really out there to think that people discuss politics and world affairs at parties.

Well okay, substitute the word party for gathering. My issue is not to discuss the goings-on at parties or people's social behavior, but to point to the apparent ignorance of people with regard to the world around them. Furthermore their choices of priorities when it comes to what they information they consume and what is important to them makes me wonder sometimes. I tend to think if people would spend a little less time in front of the boob soaking up the distraction and entertainment as you say, and a bit more time educating themselves and being more active to affect positive change, that our world would be better for it.

Yes, but who are you to decide that people are apparently ignorant when you've not had the pleasure to see them in such gatherings? Most 'gatherings' are for escapism, and most other gatherings where politics are involved are usually talks between individuals. I'm not saying there aren't MANY stupid and ignorant people, but to claim their arrogance simply from what you've seen personally borders

I'm just saying that perhaps you have a skewed vision of people, instead of what you try to imply (that most people are apparently stupid). This is simply just not the case. And what you 'see' is not always 'what you get'. You could observe me for 3 days in a row and not hear one single 'politically intelligent' remark, it just so happens I have strong political views I'm just not always in the mood to shove them down other people's throats. Forgive people for wanting some escapism, life is tough enough.

But it's a human thing. You hear one person say something stupid, and the most easy thing is to categorise them as stupid. Notice the good feeling you get in your belly when you talk down on people? It's a human thing, don't worry.. we all get that.

In my book, those that do take time to educate themselves (and pride themselves for doing so) often come from favourable environments e.g. (rich neighbourhood, parents or family or have plenty of free time on their hands).

If I'd work only 32 hours per week then I'd be happy to spend some free time going over the finer points of oil production and terrorism. But considering the fact that I have to work 55+ hours per week just to feed me and my wife, and still want (and desperately need) free time for escapism in whatever form (e.g. managing Hexen:Edge of Chaos) doesn't make me stupid, in fact I dare to ask anybody that claims me to be arrogantly just because I'm not in the mood to seek out the finer points of politics to take a good long hard look at himself in the mirror. Jeez, where to get the time?

BloodRayne wrote:

If I'd work only 32 hours per week then I'd be happy to spend some free time going over the finer points of oil production and terrorism. But considering the fact that I have to work 55+ hours per week just to feed me and my wife...

I can't think of a better reason to get involved in, at the very least, the labor movement in your company and/or neighborhood. Given the trend of the global economy making the workforce more and more expendable, it's going to take an active role by labor to hang on to what few benefits and job securities we still have--let alone recover the rights and privileges that have been lost over the last decade or so, much to the glee of corporate elites.

goliathvt wrote:

BloodRayne wrote:

If I'd work only 32 hours per week then I'd be happy to spend some free time going over the finer points of oil production and terrorism. But considering the fact that I have to work 55+ hours per week just to feed me and my wife...

I can't think of a better reason to get involved in, at the very least, the labor movement in your company and/or neighborhood. Given the trend of the global economy making the workforce more and more expendable, it's going to take an active role by labor to hang on to what few benefits and job securities we still have--let alone recover the rights and privileges that have been lost over the last decade or so, much to the glee of corporate elites.

I work in IT. No labor movements here. :mrgreen:

I work in IT, have full benefits and only work two weekends of involuntary overtime a year. Now, I really enjoy my job, so I put in extra time whenever it's needed to ensure my co-workers have the most secure and stable work environment I can provide them... but that's beside the point.

All of these perks that I enjoy and try hard to never take for granted were gained by other people willing to fight tooth and nail for every single iota of them. One of my jobs, in addition to being an IT guy, then, is to ensure that these benefits aren't taken away... which I'm sad to say is not something easily done in any U.S. profession these days.

But back to the topic at hand...

I am not sure your situation jibes with the people I'm talking about, since they have time to soak up sitcoms but not important world events. Sure people are busy, but there's always time to leaf through literature while riding a bus, while lying in bed before sleeping, or while on the toilet. Maybe people are spending too much time engaged in escapism? I'm busy as hell too, but I spend about an hour each morning with my coffee before work to read articles on line and participate in a forum or two. I'm no world expert, but at least I feel I have a sense of what's going on around me.

But I will agree with you to a point. I mean, yes I agree that the standard of living has eroded and its cost has increased. Most households require dual incomes and people are so flappin' busy earning income to pay bills that there's little time and energy left for activism. I don't really fault people for not engaging in acts of civil disobedience, although it seems that it will take a revolution to right things. Furthermore, most intelligent and thoughtful people I know feel so marginalized, so powerless and disenfranchised with their political representatives and the system that they have simply disconnected themselves with it. They simply don't care anymore. They don't vote, they don't know anything about it and they don't want to. While this is reality, it's easy to see why things are getting worse. Unfortunately a great deal of ignorant voters are installing the political parties that are ruining my country, and stealing most of my earnings which I've sacrificed a lot for.

John Piliger wrote:

Two weeks ago, I presented a young Palestinian, Mohammed Omer, with the 2008 Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism. Awarded in memory of the great US war correspondent, the prize goes to journalists who expose establishment propaganda, or "official drivel", as Gellhorn called it. Mohammed shares the prize of £5,000 with Dahr Jamail. At 24, he is the youngest winner. His citation reads: "Every day, he reports from a war zone, where he is also a prisoner. His homeland, Gaza, is surrounded, starved, attacked, forgotten. He is a profoundly humane witness to one of the great injustices of our time. He is the voice of the voiceless." The eldest of eight, Mohammed has seen most of his siblings killed or wounded or maimed. An Israeli bulldozer crushed his home while the family were inside, seriously injuring his mother. And yet, says a former Dutch ambassador, Jan Wijenberg, "he is a moderating voice, urging Palestinian youth not to court hatred but seek peace with Israel".

Getting Mohammed to London to receive his prize was a major diplomatic operation. Israel has perfidious control over Gaza's borders, and only with a Dutch embassy escort was he allowed out. Last Thursday, on his return journey, he was met at the Allenby Bridge crossing (to Jordan) by a Dutch official, who waited outside the Israeli building, unaware Mohammed had been seized by Shin Bet, Israel's infamous security organisation. Mohammed was told to turn off his mobile and remove the battery. He asked if he could call his embassy escort and was told forcefully he could not. A man stood over his luggage, picking through his documents. "Where's the money?" he demanded. Mohammed produced some US dollars. "Where is the English pound you have?"

"I realised," said Mohammed, "he was after the award stipend for the Martha Gellhorn prize. I told him I didn't have it with me. 'You are lying', he said. I was now surrounded by eight Shin Bet officers, all armed. The man called Avi ordered me to take off my clothes. I had already been through an x-ray machine. I stripped down to my underwear and was told to take off everything. When I refused, Avi put his hand on his gun. I began to cry: 'Why are you treating me this way? I am a human being.' He said, 'This is nothing compared with what you will see now.' He took his gun out, pressing it to my head and with his full body weight pinning me on my side, he forcibly removed my underwear. He then made me do a concocted sort of dance. Another man, who was laughing, said, 'Why are you bringing perfumes?' I replied, 'They are gifts for the people I love'. He said, 'Oh, do you have love in your culture?'

"As they ridiculed me, they took delight most in mocking letters I had received from readers in England. I had now been without food and water and the toilet for 12 hours, and having been made to stand, my legs buckled. I vomited and passed out. All I remember is one of them gouging, scraping and clawing with his nails at the tender flesh beneath my eyes. He scooped my head and dug his fingers in near the auditory nerves between my head and eardrum. The pain became sharper as he dug in two fingers at a time. Another man had his combat boot on my neck, pressing into the hard floor. I lay there for over an hour. The room became a menagerie of pain, sound and terror."

An ambulance was called and told to take Mohammed to a hospital, but only after he had signed a statement indemnifying the Israelis from his suffering in their custody. The Palestinian medic refused, courageously, and said he would contact the Dutch embassy escort. Alarmed, the Israelis let the ambulance go. The Israeli response has been the familiar line that Mohammed was "suspected" of smuggling and "lost his balance" during a "fair" interrogation, Reuters reported yesterday.

Israeli human rights groups have documented the routine torture of Palestinians by Shin Bet agents with "beatings, painful binding, back bending, body stretching and prolonged sleep deprivation". Amnesty has long reported the widespread use of torture by Israel, whose victims emerge as mere shadows of their former selves. Some never return. Israel is high in an international league table for its murder of journalists, especially Palestinian journalists, who receive barely a fraction of the kind of coverage given to the BBC's Alan Johnston.

The Dutch government says it is shocked by Mohammed Omer's treatment. The former ambassador Jan Wijenberg said: "This is by no means an isolated incident, but part of a long-term strategy to demolish Palestinian social, economic and cultural life ... I am aware of the possibility that Mohammed Omer might be murdered by Israeli snipers or bomb attack in the near future."

While Mohammed was receiving his prize in London, the new Israeli ambassador to Britain, Ron Proser, was publicly complaining that many Britons no longer appreciated the uniqueness of Israel's democracy. Perhaps they do now.

John Piliger
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... lliberties

Hm, is that news or just regular behaviour which bumps up every once in a while to conscience? I think it's regular, just exact the way Bin Ladin predicted it would happen in his 2001 tapes.

As a very frequent flyer I would also like to add airport security personnel should get screened more for their mental abilities and social behaviour before getting the key to the x-ray machine. Give an idiot an uniform and this will accelerate his IQ or social abilities meltdown. Just as if evolution instantly sets such a person back to go.

This, thank god, does not apply to all of them and I dare to say not even to most of them. But a percentage of 10% to 20% can ruin everything just like in any buisness.

Propaganda comes from all sides, so what's new?
ps: The Dutch government is shocked about everything, but they never act, other than acting backwards; as if progress is something that has to go back instead of forward.

It's sickening how rarely us Westerners hear about incidence like this that show Israeli brutality towards the Palestinians. Every news organization in Canada is pro-Israel and they always depicted the Israelis as the poor, suffering victims of the evil, crazed Palestinians. I must say when I was younger I bought it hook, line and sinker, until I began to see reports originating out of Arab countries which showed the other side of the story. There was an interesting documentary posted on You Tube that compared the news depictions produced by both countrys' medias on the same incidents, and you'd swear they were talking about two separate instances.

In Canada most diverse ethnic communities live in relative peace, and it's both sad and shocking that this level of hatred exists in our so-called modern, enlightened world. I've heard all the stories of the so-called Jewish conspiracy to control the media in North America, and I've always believed it was just anti-Semite dribble. Yet I ask myself how is it that Israeli censors exercise so much control over news agencies in both America and Canada, especially when one considers the extremes these agencies go to convincing the public of their neutrality? You'd think, with the amount of TV and marketing that North Americans are use to consuming, that they'd know the difference between unbiased news and propaganda, yet it seems they can't. And while I don't hate either the Jewish nor the Palestinian people, seems their leaders are just as selfish and self-serving as most politicians are, and they have no conscience when it comes to exploiting other nations - and their own people - for personal gain.

I'm in Canada but I haven't watched a news broadcast in years, or any television show for that matter. I have seen documentaries that show the inhuman machines that the Israelis use to level the Palestinian houses and such. I understand how being subjected to controlled media creates for a placid population and how it can also create disinterest in the plight of people who have little-to-no voice. I have seen many movies where "machines" have taken over humanity and when I watch those god-awful creations the Israeli army drive around I can't help but think the machines have already taken over, but they're driven by people (usually not Israelis but hired Arabs, btw).

DoV_Tomas wrote:

It's sickening how rarely us Americans hear about incidence like this.

Fixed for truth... :mrgreen:

(sorry for misquoting).

Luckilly, European news is a bit less biased than American news so this is the kind of stuff that's been in our newspapers for years. It's common knowledge that both sides are brutal against each other. The Palestinians by use of terrorism, the Israeli's by use of superior Military Force. A dutch woman was driven over by an Israeli bulldozer during a peace rally in the Gaza.... common knowledge.

I'm like Brian and gave up on watching broadcast television years ago, but sadly we're in the definite minority. I know the BBC seems to be pretty unbiased and often the reports I see on You Tube are from their programming. And while I'm grateful these sources are available, it seems Viacom or some other greedy corporation will shut You Tube down soon, and replace it by giving us more mental laxative and ten channels of Simpson re-runs all in a $39.99/month schlock "value" bundle". Sorry if I offended any Simpsons fans out there, but it's troubling when I come across a group of adults at a party, and while each knows almost every adventure or beer story Homer was involved in, or they can quote out of almost any Seinfeld episode, damned if any of them can tell you about what's going on in the Middle East. Since TV broadcasters air what is popular, it gives an idea of what is important to the general public considering out of the 500 channels available on TV, there doesn't seem to be a single honest news agency willing to tell the truth.

Terrorism is a newspeak word used to illegitimize the enemy and their grievances, larger more technologically advanced, "civilized" countries engage in "terrorism" on a regular basis as well. In America, you hear about a lot of stuff that goes on, sadly it's only one side of the story and they put such a "spin" on it as to alleviate you from from doing anything dangerous like forming your own opinion of it.

DoV_Tomas wrote:

I'm like Brian and gave up on watching broadcast television years ago, but sadly we're in the definite minority. I know the BBC seems to be pretty unbiased and often the reports I see on You Tube are from their programming. And while I'm grateful these sources are available, it seems Viacom or some other greedy corporation will shut You Tube down soon, and replace it by giving us more mental laxative and ten channels of Simpson re-runs all in a $39.99/month schlock "value" bundle". Sorry if I offended any Simpsons fans out there, but it's troubling when I come across a group of adults at a party, and while each knows almost every adventure or beer story Homer was involved in, or they can quote out of almost any Seinfeld episode, damned if any of them can tell you about what's going on in the Middle East. Since TV broadcasters air what is popular, it gives an idea of what is important to the general public considering out of the 500 channels available on TV, there doesn't seem to be a single honest news agency willing to tell the truth.

Forgive the people for wanting some escapsism. It's not like they aren't confronted with reality daily..

What do you want at a party? Deep philosophical discussion about the finer points of the Middle Eastern conflict? Seems to me like your expectations are wrong more than anything. Go to a book club, or library if you want to discuss politics. When people are at a party they might just want to think and talk about fun things. I know I do. I want to talk en be as brainless as possible when at a party. I'm being so damned serious all the rest of the time that I think I deserve some mindless time. So don't judge people by how they react and act at a party, especially not if you are expecting deep political views and expressions, there's a time and a place for everything.

I'm guess I'm really out there to think that people discuss politics and world affairs at parties.

Well okay, substitute the word party for gathering. My issue is not to discuss the goings-on at parties or people's social behavior, but to point to the apparent ignorance of people with regard to the world around them. Furthermore their choices of priorities when it comes to what they information they consume and what is important to them makes me wonder sometimes. I tend to think if people would spend a little less time in front of the boob soaking up the distraction and entertainment as you say, and a bit more time educating themselves and being more active to affect positive change, that our world would be better for it.

DoV_Tomas wrote:

I'm guess I'm really out there to think that people discuss politics and world affairs at parties.

Well okay, substitute the word party for gathering. My issue is not to discuss the goings-on at parties or people's social behavior, but to point to the apparent ignorance of people with regard to the world around them. Furthermore their choices of priorities when it comes to what they information they consume and what is important to them makes me wonder sometimes. I tend to think if people would spend a little less time in front of the boob soaking up the distraction and entertainment as you say, and a bit more time educating themselves and being more active to affect positive change, that our world would be better for it.

Yes, but who are you to decide that people are apparently ignorant when you've not had the pleasure to see them in such gatherings? Most 'gatherings' are for escapism, and most other gatherings where politics are involved are usually talks between individuals. I'm not saying there aren't MANY stupid and ignorant people, but to claim their arrogance simply from what you've seen personally borders

I'm just saying that perhaps you have a skewed vision of people, instead of what you try to imply (that most people are apparently stupid). This is simply just not the case. And what you 'see' is not always 'what you get'. You could observe me for 3 days in a row and not hear one single 'politically intelligent' remark, it just so happens I have strong political views I'm just not always in the mood to shove them down other people's throats. Forgive people for wanting some escapism, life is tough enough.

But it's a human thing. You hear one person say something stupid, and the most easy thing is to categorise them as stupid. Notice the good feeling you get in your belly when you talk down on people? It's a human thing, don't worry.. we all get that.

In my book, those that do take time to educate themselves (and pride themselves for doing so) often come from favourable environments e.g. (rich neighbourhood, parents or family or have plenty of free time on their hands).

If I'd work only 32 hours per week then I'd be happy to spend some free time going over the finer points of oil production and terrorism. But considering the fact that I have to work 55+ hours per week just to feed me and my wife, and still want (and desperately need) free time for escapism in whatever form (e.g. managing Hexen:Edge of Chaos) doesn't make me stupid, in fact I dare to ask anybody that claims me to be arrogantly just because I'm not in the mood to seek out the finer points of politics to take a good long hard look at himself in the mirror. Jeez, where to get the time?

BloodRayne wrote:

If I'd work only 32 hours per week then I'd be happy to spend some free time going over the finer points of oil production and terrorism. But considering the fact that I have to work 55+ hours per week just to feed me and my wife...

I can't think of a better reason to get involved in, at the very least, the labor movement in your company and/or neighborhood. Given the trend of the global economy making the workforce more and more expendable, it's going to take an active role by labor to hang on to what few benefits and job securities we still have--let alone recover the rights and privileges that have been lost over the last decade or so, much to the glee of corporate elites.

goliathvt wrote:

BloodRayne wrote:

If I'd work only 32 hours per week then I'd be happy to spend some free time going over the finer points of oil production and terrorism. But considering the fact that I have to work 55+ hours per week just to feed me and my wife...

I can't think of a better reason to get involved in, at the very least, the labor movement in your company and/or neighborhood. Given the trend of the global economy making the workforce more and more expendable, it's going to take an active role by labor to hang on to what few benefits and job securities we still have--let alone recover the rights and privileges that have been lost over the last decade or so, much to the glee of corporate elites.

I work in IT. No labor movements here. :mrgreen:

I work in IT, have full benefits and only work two weekends of involuntary overtime a year. Now, I really enjoy my job, so I put in extra time whenever it's needed to ensure my co-workers have the most secure and stable work environment I can provide them... but that's beside the point.

All of these perks that I enjoy and try hard to never take for granted were gained by other people willing to fight tooth and nail for every single iota of them. One of my jobs, in addition to being an IT guy, then, is to ensure that these benefits aren't taken away... which I'm sad to say is not something easily done in any U.S. profession these days.

But back to the topic at hand...

I am not sure your situation jibes with the people I'm talking about, since they have time to soak up sitcoms but not important world events. Sure people are busy, but there's always time to leaf through literature while riding a bus, while lying in bed before sleeping, or while on the toilet. Maybe people are spending too much time engaged in escapism? I'm busy as hell too, but I spend about an hour each morning with my coffee before work to read articles on line and participate in a forum or two. I'm no world expert, but at least I feel I have a sense of what's going on around me.

But I will agree with you to a point. I mean, yes I agree that the standard of living has eroded and its cost has increased. Most households require dual incomes and people are so flappin' busy earning income to pay bills that there's little time and energy left for activism. I don't really fault people for not engaging in acts of civil disobedience, although it seems that it will take a revolution to right things. Furthermore, most intelligent and thoughtful people I know feel so marginalized, so powerless and disenfranchised with their political representatives and the system that they have simply disconnected themselves with it. They simply don't care anymore. They don't vote, they don't know anything about it and they don't want to. While this is reality, it's easy to see why things are getting worse. Unfortunately a great deal of ignorant voters are installing the political parties that are ruining my country, and stealing most of my earnings which I've sacrificed a lot for.

John Piliger wrote:

Two weeks ago, I presented a young Palestinian, Mohammed Omer, with the 2008 Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism. Awarded in memory of the great US war correspondent, the prize goes to journalists who expose establishment propaganda, or "official drivel", as Gellhorn called it. Mohammed shares the prize of £5,000 with Dahr Jamail. At 24, he is the youngest winner. His citation reads: "Every day, he reports from a war zone, where he is also a prisoner. His homeland, Gaza, is surrounded, starved, attacked, forgotten. He is a profoundly humane witness to one of the great injustices of our time. He is the voice of the voiceless." The eldest of eight, Mohammed has seen most of his siblings killed or wounded or maimed. An Israeli bulldozer crushed his home while the family were inside, seriously injuring his mother. And yet, says a former Dutch ambassador, Jan Wijenberg, "he is a moderating voice, urging Palestinian youth not to court hatred but seek peace with Israel".

Getting Mohammed to London to receive his prize was a major diplomatic operation. Israel has perfidious control over Gaza's borders, and only with a Dutch embassy escort was he allowed out. Last Thursday, on his return journey, he was met at the Allenby Bridge crossing (to Jordan) by a Dutch official, who waited outside the Israeli building, unaware Mohammed had been seized by Shin Bet, Israel's infamous security organisation. Mohammed was told to turn off his mobile and remove the battery. He asked if he could call his embassy escort and was told forcefully he could not. A man stood over his luggage, picking through his documents. "Where's the money?" he demanded. Mohammed produced some US dollars. "Where is the English pound you have?"

"I realised," said Mohammed, "he was after the award stipend for the Martha Gellhorn prize. I told him I didn't have it with me. 'You are lying', he said. I was now surrounded by eight Shin Bet officers, all armed. The man called Avi ordered me to take off my clothes. I had already been through an x-ray machine. I stripped down to my underwear and was told to take off everything. When I refused, Avi put his hand on his gun. I began to cry: 'Why are you treating me this way? I am a human being.' He said, 'This is nothing compared with what you will see now.' He took his gun out, pressing it to my head and with his full body weight pinning me on my side, he forcibly removed my underwear. He then made me do a concocted sort of dance. Another man, who was laughing, said, 'Why are you bringing perfumes?' I replied, 'They are gifts for the people I love'. He said, 'Oh, do you have love in your culture?'

"As they ridiculed me, they took delight most in mocking letters I had received from readers in England. I had now been without food and water and the toilet for 12 hours, and having been made to stand, my legs buckled. I vomited and passed out. All I remember is one of them gouging, scraping and clawing with his nails at the tender flesh beneath my eyes. He scooped my head and dug his fingers in near the auditory nerves between my head and eardrum. The pain became sharper as he dug in two fingers at a time. Another man had his combat boot on my neck, pressing into the hard floor. I lay there for over an hour. The room became a menagerie of pain, sound and terror."

An ambulance was called and told to take Mohammed to a hospital, but only after he had signed a statement indemnifying the Israelis from his suffering in their custody. The Palestinian medic refused, courageously, and said he would contact the Dutch embassy escort. Alarmed, the Israelis let the ambulance go. The Israeli response has been the familiar line that Mohammed was "suspected" of smuggling and "lost his balance" during a "fair" interrogation, Reuters reported yesterday.

Israeli human rights groups have documented the routine torture of Palestinians by Shin Bet agents with "beatings, painful binding, back bending, body stretching and prolonged sleep deprivation". Amnesty has long reported the widespread use of torture by Israel, whose victims emerge as mere shadows of their former selves. Some never return. Israel is high in an international league table for its murder of journalists, especially Palestinian journalists, who receive barely a fraction of the kind of coverage given to the BBC's Alan Johnston.

The Dutch government says it is shocked by Mohammed Omer's treatment. The former ambassador Jan Wijenberg said: "This is by no means an isolated incident, but part of a long-term strategy to demolish Palestinian social, economic and cultural life ... I am aware of the possibility that Mohammed Omer might be murdered by Israeli snipers or bomb attack in the near future."

While Mohammed was receiving his prize in London, the new Israeli ambassador to Britain, Ron Proser, was publicly complaining that many Britons no longer appreciated the uniqueness of Israel's democracy. Perhaps they do now.

John Piliger
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... lliberties

Hm, is that news or just regular behaviour which bumps up every once in a while to conscience? I think it's regular, just exact the way Bin Ladin predicted it would happen in his 2001 tapes.

As a very frequent flyer I would also like to add airport security personnel should get screened more for their mental abilities and social behaviour before getting the key to the x-ray machine. Give an idiot an uniform and this will accelerate his IQ or social abilities meltdown. Just as if evolution instantly sets such a person back to go.

This, thank god, does not apply to all of them and I dare to say not even to most of them. But a percentage of 10% to 20% can ruin everything just like in any buisness.

Propaganda comes from all sides, so what's new?
ps: The Dutch government is shocked about everything, but they never act, other than acting backwards; as if progress is something that has to go back instead of forward.

It's sickening how rarely us Westerners hear about incidence like this that show Israeli brutality towards the Palestinians. Every news organization in Canada is pro-Israel and they always depicted the Israelis as the poor, suffering victims of the evil, crazed Palestinians. I must say when I was younger I bought it hook, line and sinker, until I began to see reports originating out of Arab countries which showed the other side of the story. There was an interesting documentary posted on You Tube that compared the news depictions produced by both countrys' medias on the same incidents, and you'd swear they were talking about two separate instances.

In Canada most diverse ethnic communities live in relative peace, and it's both sad and shocking that this level of hatred exists in our so-called modern, enlightened world. I've heard all the stories of the so-called Jewish conspiracy to control the media in North America, and I've always believed it was just anti-Semite dribble. Yet I ask myself how is it that Israeli censors exercise so much control over news agencies in both America and Canada, especially when one considers the extremes these agencies go to convincing the public of their neutrality? You'd think, with the amount of TV and marketing that North Americans are use to consuming, that they'd know the difference between unbiased news and propaganda, yet it seems they can't. And while I don't hate either the Jewish nor the Palestinian people, seems their leaders are just as selfish and self-serving as most politicians are, and they have no conscience when it comes to exploiting other nations - and their own people - for personal gain.

I'm in Canada but I haven't watched a news broadcast in years, or any television show for that matter. I have seen documentaries that show the inhuman machines that the Israelis use to level the Palestinian houses and such. I understand how being subjected to controlled media creates for a placid population and how it can also create disinterest in the plight of people who have little-to-no voice. I have seen many movies where "machines" have taken over humanity and when I watch those god-awful creations the Israeli army drive around I can't help but think the machines have already taken over, but they're driven by people (usually not Israelis but hired Arabs, btw).

DoV_Tomas wrote:

It's sickening how rarely us Americans hear about incidence like this.

Fixed for truth... :mrgreen:

(sorry for misquoting).

Luckilly, European news is a bit less biased than American news so this is the kind of stuff that's been in our newspapers for years. It's common knowledge that both sides are brutal against each other. The Palestinians by use of terrorism, the Israeli's by use of superior Military Force. A dutch woman was driven over by an Israeli bulldozer during a peace rally in the Gaza.... common knowledge.

I'm like Brian and gave up on watching broadcast television years ago, but sadly we're in the definite minority. I know the BBC seems to be pretty unbiased and often the reports I see on You Tube are from their programming. And while I'm grateful these sources are available, it seems Viacom or some other greedy corporation will shut You Tube down soon, and replace it by giving us more mental laxative and ten channels of Simpson re-runs all in a $39.99/month schlock "value" bundle". Sorry if I offended any Simpsons fans out there, but it's troubling when I come across a group of adults at a party, and while each knows almost every adventure or beer story Homer was involved in, or they can quote out of almost any Seinfeld episode, damned if any of them can tell you about what's going on in the Middle East. Since TV broadcasters air what is popular, it gives an idea of what is important to the general public considering out of the 500 channels available on TV, there doesn't seem to be a single honest news agency willing to tell the truth.

Terrorism is a newspeak word used to illegitimize the enemy and their grievances, larger more technologically advanced, "civilized" countries engage in "terrorism" on a regular basis as well. In America, you hear about a lot of stuff that goes on, sadly it's only one side of the story and they put such a "spin" on it as to alleviate you from from doing anything dangerous like forming your own opinion of it.

DoV_Tomas wrote:

I'm like Brian and gave up on watching broadcast television years ago, but sadly we're in the definite minority. I know the BBC seems to be pretty unbiased and often the reports I see on You Tube are from their programming. And while I'm grateful these sources are available, it seems Viacom or some other greedy corporation will shut You Tube down soon, and replace it by giving us more mental laxative and ten channels of Simpson re-runs all in a $39.99/month schlock "value" bundle". Sorry if I offended any Simpsons fans out there, but it's troubling when I come across a group of adults at a party, and while each knows almost every adventure or beer story Homer was involved in, or they can quote out of almost any Seinfeld episode, damned if any of them can tell you about what's going on in the Middle East. Since TV broadcasters air what is popular, it gives an idea of what is important to the general public considering out of the 500 channels available on TV, there doesn't seem to be a single honest news agency willing to tell the truth.

Forgive the people for wanting some escapsism. It's not like they aren't confronted with reality daily..

What do you want at a party? Deep philosophical discussion about the finer points of the Middle Eastern conflict? Seems to me like your expectations are wrong more than anything. Go to a book club, or library if you want to discuss politics. When people are at a party they might just want to think and talk about fun things. I know I do. I want to talk en be as brainless as possible when at a party. I'm being so damned serious all the rest of the time that I think I deserve some mindless time. So don't judge people by how they react and act at a party, especially not if you are expecting deep political views and expressions, there's a time and a place for everything.

I'm guess I'm really out there to think that people discuss politics and world affairs at parties.

Well okay, substitute the word party for gathering. My issue is not to discuss the goings-on at parties or people's social behavior, but to point to the apparent ignorance of people with regard to the world around them. Furthermore their choices of priorities when it comes to what they information they consume and what is important to them makes me wonder sometimes. I tend to think if people would spend a little less time in front of the boob soaking up the distraction and entertainment as you say, and a bit more time educating themselves and being more active to affect positive change, that our world would be better for it.

DoV_Tomas wrote:

I'm guess I'm really out there to think that people discuss politics and world affairs at parties.

Well okay, substitute the word party for gathering. My issue is not to discuss the goings-on at parties or people's social behavior, but to point to the apparent ignorance of people with regard to the world around them. Furthermore their choices of priorities when it comes to what they information they consume and what is important to them makes me wonder sometimes. I tend to think if people would spend a little less time in front of the boob soaking up the distraction and entertainment as you say, and a bit more time educating themselves and being more active to affect positive change, that our world would be better for it.

Yes, but who are you to decide that people are apparently ignorant when you've not had the pleasure to see them in such gatherings? Most 'gatherings' are for escapism, and most other gatherings where politics are involved are usually talks between individuals. I'm not saying there aren't MANY stupid and ignorant people, but to claim their arrogance simply from what you've seen personally borders

I'm just saying that perhaps you have a skewed vision of people, instead of what you try to imply (that most people are apparently stupid). This is simply just not the case. And what you 'see' is not always 'what you get'. You could observe me for 3 days in a row and not hear one single 'politically intelligent' remark, it just so happens I have strong political views I'm just not always in the mood to shove them down other people's throats. Forgive people for wanting some escapism, life is tough enough.

But it's a human thing. You hear one person say something stupid, and the most easy thing is to categorise them as stupid. Notice the good feeling you get in your belly when you talk down on people? It's a human thing, don't worry.. we all get that.

In my book, those that do take time to educate themselves (and pride themselves for doing so) often come from favourable environments e.g. (rich neighbourhood, parents or family or have plenty of free time on their hands).

If I'd work only 32 hours per week then I'd be happy to spend some free time going over the finer points of oil production and terrorism. But considering the fact that I have to work 55+ hours per week just to feed me and my wife, and still want (and desperately need) free time for escapism in whatever form (e.g. managing Hexen:Edge of Chaos) doesn't make me stupid, in fact I dare to ask anybody that claims me to be arrogantly just because I'm not in the mood to seek out the finer points of politics to take a good long hard look at himself in the mirror. Jeez, where to get the time?

BloodRayne wrote:

If I'd work only 32 hours per week then I'd be happy to spend some free time going over the finer points of oil production and terrorism. But considering the fact that I have to work 55+ hours per week just to feed me and my wife...

I can't think of a better reason to get involved in, at the very least, the labor movement in your company and/or neighborhood. Given the trend of the global economy making the workforce more and more expendable, it's going to take an active role by labor to hang on to what few benefits and job securities we still have--let alone recover the rights and privileges that have been lost over the last decade or so, much to the glee of corporate elites.

goliathvt wrote:

BloodRayne wrote:

If I'd work only 32 hours per week then I'd be happy to spend some free time going over the finer points of oil production and terrorism. But considering the fact that I have to work 55+ hours per week just to feed me and my wife...

I can't think of a better reason to get involved in, at the very least, the labor movement in your company and/or neighborhood. Given the trend of the global economy making the workforce more and more expendable, it's going to take an active role by labor to hang on to what few benefits and job securities we still have--let alone recover the rights and privileges that have been lost over the last decade or so, much to the glee of corporate elites.

I work in IT. No labor movements here. :mrgreen:

I work in IT, have full benefits and only work two weekends of involuntary overtime a year. Now, I really enjoy my job, so I put in extra time whenever it's needed to ensure my co-workers have the most secure and stable work environment I can provide them... but that's beside the point.

All of these perks that I enjoy and try hard to never take for granted were gained by other people willing to fight tooth and nail for every single iota of them. One of my jobs, in addition to being an IT guy, then, is to ensure that these benefits aren't taken away... which I'm sad to say is not something easily done in any U.S. profession these days.

But back to the topic at hand...

I am not sure your situation jibes with the people I'm talking about, since they have time to soak up sitcoms but not important world events. Sure people are busy, but there's always time to leaf through literature while riding a bus, while lying in bed before sleeping, or while on the toilet. Maybe people are spending too much time engaged in escapism? I'm busy as hell too, but I spend about an hour each morning with my coffee before work to read articles on line and participate in a forum or two. I'm no world expert, but at least I feel I have a sense of what's going on around me.

But I will agree with you to a point. I mean, yes I agree that the standard of living has eroded and its cost has increased. Most households require dual incomes and people are so flappin' busy earning income to pay bills that there's little time and energy left for activism. I don't really fault people for not engaging in acts of civil disobedience, although it seems that it will take a revolution to right things. Furthermore, most intelligent and thoughtful people I know feel so marginalized, so powerless and disenfranchised with their political representatives and the system that they have simply disconnected themselves with it. They simply don't care anymore. They don't vote, they don't know anything about it and they don't want to. While this is reality, it's easy to see why things are getting worse. Unfortunately a great deal of ignorant voters are installing the political parties that are ruining my country, and stealing most of my earnings which I've sacrificed a lot for.