Spurned on by the level design convo in teh RTCW2 thread
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=15922&p=201938#p201938

I made this thread rant rave and talk about modern game designs, and how better the older stuff was setup!

qwertz123 wrote:

Quote:

HL2 and FEAR are the pinnacle of modern level design in a FPS

*ouch* and that here, on d3w? i feel really sad (plays hellammers "thriump of death" once again)

anyway; i started oldschool and i wanna die oldschool, what ever that means.

and really peeps, wait for some motion or better said the first TEST of the mp part! no beta, just TEST, like back in good'ol days. *keeps on dreaming*

Sadly yes, unless you can name better because I have not played it,Far cry is a sand box game on a island so its not that much better, but I can;t think of anything post 02/halo 1 to have better level design than FEAR/HL2 and thats a fact because thats the best the industry has bothered to do....

copying real world locations != great design. That's duplicating. Anyone can duplicate. It's easy. Even a CRAPPY LEVEL DESIGNER can duplicate something. Anyone notice the first CS/HL2 publicity shots (some on the back of ATI boxes)? They showed shinny floors. Abandoned buildings don't have people who buff the floor on a regular basis. Especially when it's a prison where you're sent to die.

Prey = great design. They took something that looked normal & make it interesting. It was creative. They used all 3 axis. Same with Doom 1/2 & Quake 1/2. They doom something that looked normal but made it really interesting.

The Happy Friar wrote:

copying real world locations != great design. That's duplicating. Anyone can duplicate. It's easy. Even a CRAPPY LEVEL DESIGNER can duplicate something. Anyone notice the first CS/HL2 publicity shots (some on the back of ATI boxes)? They showed shinny floors. Abandoned buildings don't have people who buff the floor on a regular basis. Especially when it's a prison where you're sent to die.

Prey = great design. They took something that looked normal & make it interesting. It was creative. They used all 3 axis. Same with Doom 1/2 & Quake 1/2. They doom something that looked normal but made it really interesting.

JK was like that with the shiny stuff, but minor details like that don't make up for boxy level designs.

JK/JKJA>Halo1/HL2>Prey>Q4>D3 (halo 1 might have better level design than HL2)
level design in that order

Yes JK uses modernisticly "reserved" layouts but they are bigger and more complex than the games mentioned, and Prey has nothing over them sorry changing gravity and add warp zones dose not replace the fact the levels are small and boxy.

I love Dooms levels for their mazy complexity SW:DF,heretic, hexen, duke/shadow warrior and blood have as good or better layouts.

Strife was good too can't forget one of the best spritbased RPG FPSs

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

Yes JK uses modernisticly "reserved" layouts but they are bigger and more complex than the games mentioned, and Prey has nothing over them sorry changing gravity and add warp zones dose not replace the fact the levels are small and boxy.

I was under the assumption we were talking about the design only, not the playability, textures, etc. Never played JK (except the demo) so can't comment on that (JK2 was very very boring in design. Ohhh... another room with computer consoles, whoda thunk it! Accurate to the Star Wars universe, but boring!). Even though Halo was really basic, they made great use of what they had. Felt like a space ship & planet. Gotta say the ability to travel on the surface in a circle made it feel really expansive.

Prey = best level design this decade. If all you can say is the points on level design were gravity & warp zones then you're missing the point (besides, that's gameplay). That's It's like saying Doom 1/2 was just about teleporters, HL1 was all about big doors, etc.

The Happy Friar wrote:

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

Yes JK uses modernisticly "reserved" layouts but they are bigger and more complex than the games mentioned, and Prey has nothing over them sorry changing gravity and add warp zones dose not replace the fact the levels are small and boxy.

I was under the assumption we were talking about the design only, not the playability, textures, etc. Never played JK (except the demo) so can't comment on that (JK2 was very very boring in design. Ohhh... another room with computer consoles, whoda thunk it! Accurate to the Star Wars universe, but boring!). Even though Halo was really basic, they made great use of what they had. Felt like a space ship & planet. Gotta say the ability to travel on the surface in a circle made it feel really expansive.

Prey = best level design this decade. If all you can say is the points on level design were gravity & warp zones then you're missing the point (besides, that's gameplay). That's It's like saying Doom 1/2 was just about teleporters, HL1 was all about big doors, etc.

I am focusing on sheer level layout not the graphical fodder used to make it look shinny or having paper and coffee cups in a office cubicle none of that crap that should be put in AFTER you get done making a deep level, textures and themes of levels are also SOL, level design and its depth and layout, look at D3 levels to Doom 1s Doom 1 has more depth in layout while D3 might offer more immersion you wont care because you’ve already moved on to the next spot because there’s nothing to keep you around no exploring and the monsters are dead next…

What you think of HL1 I think of prey, HL1 had deeper and better laid out levels than prey, prey has warp points and alt grav zones to reuse a map and offers nothing outside modern level layout themes.

If I forgot a 2 sorry focusing on JK2-3 more than 1, but JK1 was interesting not a corridor shooter layout wise not quite a mazey experience either it had a lot of nooks, think of it as deeper than JK2 but not as deep as say Doom and its clones.

All JK's work on location a lot of its level themes are bases, like HLs is underground lab, theme means squat if the layout is not well laid out, this is why I say FEAR is pretty good despite the repeating setting.

Halo did well and got worse with each game level layout wise, Halo and HL2 has a lot of similarities ok to well laid out small levels, long simi bland large ones. It’s a shame they didn’t keep up with level design in the next Halo games….

Even bioshock has better level design than Prey.... here’s what I think of prey’s level design take HL2 or Q4 add warp points and alt gravity a zones in the end same basic level design..... it does not break the design mold of modern FPSs it just adds a couple features to reuse the same map even if it had HUB level design the small/boxy laidout levels makes it no better than any current FPS, in fact I’ll still say FEAR has the best level design since any FPS past 04 and far cry aint half bad either.

And I somehow doubt they would put intricate level layouts in war sim shooters and that’s the only FPS I stay away from just from the repetitive of them all 0-o

AS far as I know BIoshock is the newest game to offer truly above average modern level design in a FPS and even then it’s not greater than what the industry was capable of 9+ years ago…

And I am still pissed about BS being BS instated of a solid FPS RPG…and don’t get me started on falout3 ;_;

I think we might be arguing stylistic themes(setting and details in workmanship of the design) and not layout (how a map is built,the nooks what goes where,pathing,ect,ect).

Details IE stylistic themes can take a flying leap I am tired of graphics subverting qaulity and depth

The Happy Friar wrote:

copying real world locations != great design. That's duplicating. Anyone can duplicate. It's easy. Even a CRAPPY LEVEL DESIGNER can duplicate something. Anyone notice the first CS/HL2 publicity shots (some on the back of ATI boxes)? They showed shinny floors. Abandoned buildings don't have people who buff the floor on a regular basis. Especially when it's a prison where you're sent to die.

Prey = great design. They took something that looked normal & make it interesting. It was creative. They used all 3 axis. Same with Doom 1/2 & Quake 1/2. They doom something that looked normal but made it really interesting.

In my opinion realism is boring, I agree with The Friar anyone can duplicate something all you have to do is learn the technicals of it, I'd rather see something visionary and artistic. I believe someday when gaming visuals become indiscernable from real life the novelty of realism will wear off, that most will stop caring about how realistic games can look and start embracing artistic stylization.

As far as Old-school Vs. New School I consider the modern style an insult to my intelligence, none of the modern games ever leave you to figure things out for yourself, there is always some event or NCP that prods you further and further towards the end. Most games are trying to emulate the HL series where the game never really gives you time to wander or explore, there is always some kind of scripted event or someone always telling you where to go or what to do next like in Quake4. I miss the old style like in Quake and the Dooms where you are dropped in a level and it's up to you to find the exit and was actually possible to get lost, in some of the old Doom maps I actually needed the automap. When was the last time anyone got lost or stuck in a map, or completed it without finding every secret area or powerup stash? It's been a very, very, long time for me.

CrimsonHead wrote:

The Happy Friar wrote:

copying real world locations != great design. That's duplicating. Anyone can duplicate. It's easy. Even a CRAPPY LEVEL DESIGNER can duplicate something. Anyone notice the first CS/HL2 publicity shots (some on the back of ATI boxes)? They showed shinny floors. Abandoned buildings don't have people who buff the floor on a regular basis. Especially when it's a prison where you're sent to die.

Prey = great design. They took something that looked normal & make it interesting. It was creative. They used all 3 axis. Same with Doom 1/2 & Quake 1/2. They doom something that looked normal but made it really interesting.

In my opinion realism is boring, I agree with The Friar anyone can duplicate something all you have to do is learn the technicals of it, I'd rather see something visionary and artistic. I believe someday when gaming visuals become indiscernable from real life the novelty of realism will wear off, that most will stop caring about how realistic games can look and start embracing artistic stylization.

As far as Old-school Vs. New School I consider the modern style an insult to my intelligence, none of the modern games ever leave you to figure things out for yourself, there is always some event or NCP that prods you further and further towards the end. Most games are trying to emulate the HL series where the game never really gives you time to wander or explore, there is always some kind of scripted event or someone always telling you where to go or what to do next like in Quake4. I miss the old style like in Quake and the Dooms where you are dropped in a level and it's up to you to find the exit and was actually possible to get lost, in some of the old Doom maps I actually needed the automap. When was the last time anyone got lost or stuck in a map, or completed it without finding every secret area or powerup stash? It's been a very, very, long time for me.

Oh god yes I miss the map and the secret counter the most....it gave a sense of completion to a game... now adays they make most action games like the old arcade games click click press a button click click click, nothing but dumb redundancy.....

I have to agree that Jedi Knight is the pinnacle of level design. I kept waiting for games to take a step further, but it never happened. The thing about Jedi Knight is that they'd start by coming up with an exciting and interesting basis for the level (a giant fuel station which requires you to climb through huge fuel pipes or a giant spaceship falling off a cliff: entire level is tilted at a crazy slant, lights are flashing and explosions rip through the ship. Still the best chaotic damaged space ship level I've ever played. You could actually get killed by those random explosions (which were actually random and not scripted), your path wasn't at all clear, and you had a limited amount of time before the ship hit the ground so you were shitting yourself trying to figure out where to go without getting hit with giant sliding crates), and then the level was designed around that concept. This ensured that the levels were all memorable, unique and fun (plus they remembered the vertical aspect of the 3D world). You'd never be retreading another damn hallway with a different texture. The levels themselves were characters, adding a unique flavor to the experience. I also loved how there were so many traps in MP...it made things a lot more exciting trying to get the edge on the player by finding a new secret area with a trap control.

Now as hallway shooters go, I think Doom 3 is very well designed...it's just limited by the nature of the design basis. Half Life 2 is also very well designed for what it is. I also felt like Prey was a breath of fresh air and a step in the right direction (probably the best vertically conscious modern game). The fact remains though that a game from 1997 has not been surpassed in level design, and this is quite a sad state of affairs.

Gabrobot wrote:

I have to agree that Jedi Knight is the pinnacle of level design. I kept waiting for games to take a step further, but it never happened. The thing about Jedi Knight is that they'd start by coming up with an exciting and interesting basis for the level (a giant fuel station which requires you to climb through huge fuel pipes or a giant spaceship falling off a cliff: entire level is tilted at a crazy slant, lights are flashing and explosions rip through the ship. Still the best chaotic damaged space ship level I've ever played. You could actually get killed by those random explosions (which were actually random and not scripted), your path wasn't at all clear, and you had a limited amount of time before the ship hit the ground so you were shitting yourself trying to figure out where to go without getting hit with giant sliding crates), and then the level was designed around that concept. This ensured that the levels were all memorable, unique and fun (plus they remembered the vertical aspect of the 3D world). You'd never be retreading another damn hallway with a different texture. The levels themselves were characters, adding a unique flavor to the experience. I also loved how there were so many traps in MP...it made things a lot more exciting trying to get the edge on the player by finding a new secret area with a trap control.

Now as hallway shooters go, I think Doom 3 is very well designed...it's just limited by the nature of the design basis. Half Life 2 is also very well designed for what it is. I also felt like Prey was a breath of fresh air and a step in the right direction (probably the best vertically conscious modern game). The fact remains though that a game from 1997 has not been surpassed in level design, and this is quite a sad state of affairs.

I can't argue with what you are saying here, altho I feel that Preys over all level design was average the extra bits(warp/grav) were nice but didn't break the mold.

As for overall design HL2 is not bad,Q4 is bearable, even Turok is surprisingly bearable but D3 is bad on every level but aesthetics and thus why I hate the game its all aesthetics in a industry filled with devs that are already shallow....

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

qwertz123 wrote:

Quote:

HL2 and FEAR are the pinnacle of modern level design in a FPS

*ouch* and that here, on d3w? i feel really sad (plays hellammers "thriump of death" once again)

anyway; i started oldschool and i wanna die oldschool, what ever that means.

and really peeps, wait for some motion or better said the first TEST of the mp part! no beta, just TEST, like back in good'ol days. *keeps on dreaming*

Sadly yes, unless you can name better because I have not played it,Far cry is a sand box game on a island so its not that much better, but I can;t think of anything post 02/halo 1 to have better level design than FEAR/HL2 and thats a fact because thats the best the industry has bothered to do....

why did u quote my comment in here? thats really odd cuz i didn't talk about leveldesign, not in the first place.

qwertz123 wrote:

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

qwertz123 wrote:

Quote:

HL2 and FEAR are the pinnacle of modern level design in a FPS

*ouch* and that here, on d3w? i feel really sad (plays hellammers "thriump of death" once again)

anyway; i started oldschool and i wanna die oldschool, what ever that means.

and really peeps, wait for some motion or better said the first TEST of the mp part! no beta, just TEST, like back in good'ol days. *keeps on dreaming*

Sadly yes, unless you can name better because I have not played it,Far cry is a sand box game on a island so its not that much better, but I can;t think of anything post 02/halo 1 to have better level design than FEAR/HL2 and thats a fact because thats the best the industry has bothered to do....

why did u quote my comment in here? thats really odd cuz i didn't talk about leveldesign, not in the first place.

NOOB FOCUS!!!! there is no RTCW2 talk in it thus it goes here *noogies*

Sorry for offending, but personally I didn't like FEAR. It had some neat game mechanics, but the environment design was all extremely box-like and boring modern office buildings. Granted I quit playing it about half way out of boredom so sorry if I missed something earth shattering at the end.

I liked HL2's design as I did Doom3, with the prior edging out in quality of game play. Bioshock is the latest release that I played and I thought the environment was very original and beautiful. Although I haven't played it...yet...Gears of War 2 has amazing design too. Epic went to great lengths to introduce original game play mechanics into their MP, and starting with STALKER the FPS genre saw the addition of some RTS elements, quests and gathering which many FPS games didn't have before. Bioshock uses very imaginative weapons and its game play is very fluid and has a high level of player causality. IMO we are seeing the genre evolve albeit painfully slowly.

DoV_Tomas wrote:

Sorry for offending, but personally I didn't like FEAR. It had some neat game mechanics, but the environment design was all extremely box-like and boring modern office buildings. Granted I quit playing it about half way out of boredom so sorry if I missed something earth shattering at the end.

I liked HL2's design as I did Doom3, with the prior edging out in quality of game play. Bioshock is the latest release that I played and I thought the environment was very original and beautiful. Although I haven't played it...yet...Gears of War 2 has amazing design too. Epic went to great lengths to introduce original game play mechanics into their MP, and starting with STALKER the FPS genre saw the addition of some RTS elements, quests and gathering which many FPS games didn't have before. Bioshock uses very imaginative weapons and its game play is very fluid and has a high level of player causality. IMO we are seeing the genre evolve albeit painfully slowly.

really wish you guys would post game design rants and non RTCW stuff in the other thread >>

Don't get me wrong the best thing about fear is the level layouts for not being total BS and the gameplay mechanics for being neat and the story for begin creepy, what drags it down is lack of fun, grenades should be random drops there needs to be more weapons to keep the fun going as well a a few more solider types....uhg stagnation...fun....

System shock 2 and des ex did all that and better.... much better than the FPS RPGs that came out alter...altho Dark messhia was nto so bad but it was good mostly for the melee combat, BS is a watered down and mutated FPS RPG for dweebs.....altho if it had no connection to SS2 I would dub it a good adventure FPS...but sorry BS is a downgrade the deaf AI the final straw.

GoW is not all that....at least not what I played....then again I have a low tolerance for butt cam(3rdP) games..... dead aspacelooks good tho...but 3rdP kills the immersion for me....

This is a great thread. I'm glad it came up. I agree with most of everyone's observations, and feel it a fresh wind where everyone pretty much in unison knocks Q4 & D3 level-design. I'm in.

I always referred to hallway shooters as "rat in a trap" games. or "only one way to go". Another incredibly dumbed down example would be COD3. stupid *&** game.
and guess what, it failed. People don't like being put through scripted experiences.

I get this from a couple of angles. Developers & Artists in modern AAA games put so much effort into making the content that I don't think that they are as comfortable putting in easter eggs, secret doors and hidden areas, that the player might never find. and it took them weeks to create. Similarly, this makes them uncomfortable with sandboxes as well, where a player might miss a whole area on his way to the goal.

So instead, HL2 cemented in the sort of very scripted, very controlled "arena" type environments, where they have this small area, use tricks to make it look big. focus on reality mimicry, which I also agree is a stupid waste of artist time. and they make sure that you visit every nook & cranny of the area they created, probably in order to meet some sort of "xx hours of play" goal set by their management/design goals.

One game I didn't hear mentioned that I want to mention is GoldenEye, which reminds me of JK in it's abstract level design. Also Oni, or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

I think in earlier times, developers were void of pre-conceived ideas, so they just explored the tools and made abstract things that were cool and fun based on immediate feedback around the office. The canonical example of this would be Romero's Doom levels. It just didn't have a president so mentally, he was free to do whatever he wanted to. That's why they flow so nicely. Now I think we're stuck in a cycle of cross-influence and emulation, where devs are looking at what say, Crysis just did and just copying that with their own spin because they are unsure of themselves. and there's a lot of $$ at stake too.

chiapas wrote:

This is a great thread. I'm glad it came up. I agree with most of everyone's observations, and feel it a fresh wind where everyone pretty much in unison knocks Q4 & D3 level-design. I'm in.

I always referred to hallway shooters as "rat in a trap" games. or "only one way to go". Another incredibly dumbed down example would be COD3. stupid *&** game.
and guess what, it failed. People don't like being put through scripted experiences.

The sad thing is most consumers don't really care about qaulity because they buyinto whatever is being sold like mindless sheeple, I simply refuse to put up with it much anymore either tis good or wont spend money on it.

Quote:

I get this from a couple of angles. Developers & Artists in modern AAA games put so much effort into making the content that I don't think that they are as comfortable putting in easter eggs, secret doors and hidden areas, that the player might never find. and it took them weeks to create. Similarly, this makes them uncomfortable with sandboxes as well, where a player might miss a whole area on his way to the goal.

Also there are issues with "its just a job"/"burn out" they work rather hard and doing it for years you don't want to fight or evolve much anymore.

Quote:

So instead, HL2 cemented in the sort of very scripted, very controlled "arena" type environments, where they have this small area, use tricks to make it look big. focus on reality mimicry, which I also agree is a stupid waste of artist time. and they make sure that you visit every nook & cranny of the area they created, probably in order to meet some sort of "xx hours of play" goal set by their management/design goals.

Sounds about right devs could build better but are limited by limited design goals not to mention time to get the game to the publisher.

Quote:

One game I didn't hear mentioned that I want to mention is GoldenEye, which reminds me of JK in it's abstract level design. Also Oni, or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

Never got to play Goldeneye my first console FPS was Turok and it was luv, even EVO is stuck in the modern design quagmire but managed to come off better than the new one IMO.

Quote:

I think in earlier times, developers were void of pre-conceived ideas, so they just explored the tools and made abstract things that were cool and fun based on immediate feedback around the office. The canonical example of this would be Romero's Doom levels. It just didn't have a president so mentally, he was free to do whatever he wanted to. That's why they flow so nicely. Now I think we're stuck in a cycle of cross-influence and emulation, where devs are looking at what say, Crysis just did and just copying that with their own spin because they are unsure of themselves. and there's a lot of $$ at stake too.

Ever play Daikatana? minus the hype I loved the game the story was iffy but so what it had not only gameplay but a quriky RPG system and more importantly good level design and fun weapons.

Rage looks interesting but I wonder how boxy they are going to make it?

chiapas wrote:

or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

No, you're absolutely right...and it's not a coincidence, it uses the Jedi Knight engine (technically named the Sith engine) and was made by some of the same developers. Actually going off of that, Obi-Wan's levels inherited from the aborted PC version still show signs of what was once probably brilliant level design...there are a lot of random forgotten dead-end passages and holes if you search around that came from when the levels were a lot more open and non-linear. (Obi-Wan was made on an evolution of the Sith engine/tools and was made by the developers who worked on the Jedi Knight expansion pack, Mysteries of the Sith)

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

Rage looks interesting but I wonder how boxy they are going to make it?

<off topic>
Rage is still a long ways off. It sounds like they are already running buggy races and maybe even doing some vehicular combat within the id offices on a nightly basis. The screenshots coming out continue to improve. No doubt it will continue to get more and more gorgeous. Somehow I don't think that they're going to completely re-unify the lighting model again w/ idTech5 because of lastyears Matt Hooper demos where he showed off the new tools and how they could instantly change the gloss, veneer, color, tone of an environment. Ultimately there is more flexibility when you give designers the option of both approaches.

Id's stuff is always solid at the engine level. The real challenge for them is to accept the possibility of new mechanics or gameplay types. These guys are more traditional than a bunch of monks in a monastery.

The thing that bugs me the most about id's overall look is the character models (the humans, not any of the demons). Their faces in particular, but also their clothing and bodies. They look awful. The characters in Doom3 look so completely atrocious, like big styrofoam, polygon face, black teeth, terrible, hardly realistic. The textures aren't good and the meshes could use work. Where HL2's character's look almost real, their eyes follow you around. A lot of other games have, I mean A LOT, like in THE HUNDREDS have way better looking character art than id does. The fact that they don't notice and fix it displays a sort of suspended disbelief on their part where they just make the best out of what they've got and then try to butter up the interviewers with talking points.
</off topic>

Gabrobot wrote:

chiapas wrote:

or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

No, you're absolutely right...and it's not a coincidence, it uses the Jedi Knight engine (technically named the Sith engine) and was made by some of the same developers. Actually going off of that, Obi-Wan's levels inherited from the aborted PC version still show signs of what was once probably brilliant level design...there are a lot of random forgotten dead-end passages and holes if you search around that came from when the levels were a lot more open and non-linear. (Obi-Wan was made on an evolution of the Sith engine/tools and was made by the developers who worked on the Jedi Knight expansion pack, Mysteries of the Sith)

Yes! Score one for good instincts. I remember liking that game a lot. It seemed like I played it for weeks and still never got to the end. The ecosystems in Indy felt sort of alive. Also, I remember that there was a hill climb in a jeep like half-way through that remains today unique from all other gaming experiences I've had.

What is this Obi-Wan you speak of? google turns up that it's a sequel for the Gameboy color. what about the aborted PC version? have you played it?

chiapas wrote:

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

Rage looks interesting but I wonder how boxy they are going to make it?

<off topic>
Rage is still a long ways off. It sounds like they are already running buggy races and maybe even doing some vehicular combat within the id offices on a nightly basis. The screenshots coming out continue to improve. No doubt it will continue to get more and more gorgeous. Somehow I don't think that they're going to completely re-unify the lighting model again w/ idTech5 because of lastyears Matt Hooper demos where he showed off the new tools and how they could instantly change the gloss, veneer, color, tone of an environment. Ultimately there is more flexibility when you give designers the option of both approaches.

Id's stuff is always solid at the engine level. The real challenge for them is to accept the possibility of new mechanics or gameplay types. These guys are more traditional than a bunch of monks in a monastery.

The thing that bugs me the most about id's overall look is the character models (the humans, not any of the demons). Their faces in particular, but also their clothing and bodies. They look awful. The characters in Doom3 look so completely atrocious, like big styrofoam, polygon face, black teeth, terrible, hardly realistic. The textures aren't good and the meshes could use work. Where HL2's character's look almost real, their eyes follow you around. A lot of other games have, I mean A LOT, like in THE HUNDREDS have way better looking character art than id does. The fact that they don't notice and fix it displays a sort of suspended disbelief on their part where they just make the best out of what they've got and then try to butter up the interviewers with talking points.
</off topic>

thats not OT since we are talking designs here and any nuance related to design is not OT

I dunno besides talking different paths at engine building I see ID and Epic as pretty much the same, unreal 2 is as bad as D3 on many levels, mean when you boil it down both suffer from limited level/weapon/monster design.

chiapas wrote:

Gabrobot wrote:

chiapas wrote:

or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

No, you're absolutely right...and it's not a coincidence, it uses the Jedi Knight engine (technically named the Sith engine) and was made by some of the same developers. Actually going off of that, Obi-Wan's levels inherited from the aborted PC version still show signs of what was once probably brilliant level design...there are a lot of random forgotten dead-end passages and holes if you search around that came from when the levels were a lot more open and non-linear. (Obi-Wan was made on an evolution of the Sith engine/tools and was made by the developers who worked on the Jedi Knight expansion pack, Mysteries of the Sith)

Yes! Score one for good instincts. I remember liking that game a lot. It seemed like I played it for weeks and still never got to the end. The ecosystems in Indy felt sort of alive. Also, I remember that there was a hill climb in a jeep like half-way through that remains today unique from all other gaming experiences I've had.

What is this Obi-Wan you speak of? google turns up that it's a sequel for the Gameboy color. what about the aborted PC version? have you played it?

theres this
http://pc.ign.com/objects/014/014492.html
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Obi-Wan/dp/B00005RCQJ

and SW galaxies obi wan.

Forgot to I hope they do something with level design in rage I am hoping for at least HL2 style levels this is better than the current industry standard IMO.

I wonder if it be a hub setup where the use a vehicle in large outside areas would come in handy, you can do missions/quests from the city or rest areas and what not....but I know better it will probably be a rail shooter of some sort.... like most FPSs....

chiapas wrote:

Yes! Score one for good instincts. I remember liking that game a lot. It seemed like I played it for weeks and still never got to the end. The ecosystems in Indy felt sort of alive. Also, I remember that there was a hill climb in a jeep like half-way through that remains today unique from all other gaming experiences I've had.

Yeah, I remember there'd be a lot of random creatures like crabs and scorpians running around, plus fish and sharks in the water. And the levels were always changing and introducing something new. The only thing wrong with the game was it's clunky action (shooting at enemies was a real chore).

chiapas wrote:

What is this Obi-Wan you speak of? google turns up that it's a sequel for the Gameboy color. what about the aborted PC version? have you played it?

Back around 2000 Lucasarts announced Episode I: Obi Wan, a PC game following Obi Wan through the events in Episode I. It expanded on things quite a bit and was based around open levels that had multiple routes and missions. The game was a spiritual successor to Jedi Knight, and could be played in both 1st and 3rd person view, although mostly designed for 3rd person because of the focus on the lightsaber. There's an early preview of the game here: http://web.archive.org/web/20001117045000/www.lucasgames.com/obi_e3preview_051500.html

Some screens:

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/action/starwarsobiwan/images.html?page=3

Then Lucasarts canceled the PC version to a huge fan outcry (which apparently included death threats against Lucasarts employees). The game was later re-unveiled as an Xbox game. Though they claimed they had upgraded the graphics, it clearly looked worse (indeed I've played the Xbox version where that first PC screen was taken, and the lighting is essentially full-lit...no lighting detail at all). If you have an Xbox it's probably worth playing just to see what's left of the Lucasarts spark in the original PC levels (the first few levels they tacked on for the Xbox version are beyond awful).

Just look at the contrast between the two versions:

Xbox version:

PC version:

Spurned on by the level design convo in teh RTCW2 thread
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=15922&p=201938#p201938

I made this thread rant rave and talk about modern game designs, and how better the older stuff was setup!

qwertz123 wrote:

Quote:

HL2 and FEAR are the pinnacle of modern level design in a FPS

*ouch* and that here, on d3w? i feel really sad (plays hellammers "thriump of death" once again)

anyway; i started oldschool and i wanna die oldschool, what ever that means.

and really peeps, wait for some motion or better said the first TEST of the mp part! no beta, just TEST, like back in good'ol days. *keeps on dreaming*

Sadly yes, unless you can name better because I have not played it,Far cry is a sand box game on a island so its not that much better, but I can;t think of anything post 02/halo 1 to have better level design than FEAR/HL2 and thats a fact because thats the best the industry has bothered to do....

copying real world locations != great design. That's duplicating. Anyone can duplicate. It's easy. Even a CRAPPY LEVEL DESIGNER can duplicate something. Anyone notice the first CS/HL2 publicity shots (some on the back of ATI boxes)? They showed shinny floors. Abandoned buildings don't have people who buff the floor on a regular basis. Especially when it's a prison where you're sent to die.

Prey = great design. They took something that looked normal & make it interesting. It was creative. They used all 3 axis. Same with Doom 1/2 & Quake 1/2. They doom something that looked normal but made it really interesting.

The Happy Friar wrote:

copying real world locations != great design. That's duplicating. Anyone can duplicate. It's easy. Even a CRAPPY LEVEL DESIGNER can duplicate something. Anyone notice the first CS/HL2 publicity shots (some on the back of ATI boxes)? They showed shinny floors. Abandoned buildings don't have people who buff the floor on a regular basis. Especially when it's a prison where you're sent to die.

Prey = great design. They took something that looked normal & make it interesting. It was creative. They used all 3 axis. Same with Doom 1/2 & Quake 1/2. They doom something that looked normal but made it really interesting.

JK was like that with the shiny stuff, but minor details like that don't make up for boxy level designs.

JK/JKJA>Halo1/HL2>Prey>Q4>D3 (halo 1 might have better level design than HL2)
level design in that order

Yes JK uses modernisticly "reserved" layouts but they are bigger and more complex than the games mentioned, and Prey has nothing over them sorry changing gravity and add warp zones dose not replace the fact the levels are small and boxy.

I love Dooms levels for their mazy complexity SW:DF,heretic, hexen, duke/shadow warrior and blood have as good or better layouts.

Strife was good too can't forget one of the best spritbased RPG FPSs

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

Yes JK uses modernisticly "reserved" layouts but they are bigger and more complex than the games mentioned, and Prey has nothing over them sorry changing gravity and add warp zones dose not replace the fact the levels are small and boxy.

I was under the assumption we were talking about the design only, not the playability, textures, etc. Never played JK (except the demo) so can't comment on that (JK2 was very very boring in design. Ohhh... another room with computer consoles, whoda thunk it! Accurate to the Star Wars universe, but boring!). Even though Halo was really basic, they made great use of what they had. Felt like a space ship & planet. Gotta say the ability to travel on the surface in a circle made it feel really expansive.

Prey = best level design this decade. If all you can say is the points on level design were gravity & warp zones then you're missing the point (besides, that's gameplay). That's It's like saying Doom 1/2 was just about teleporters, HL1 was all about big doors, etc.

The Happy Friar wrote:

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

Yes JK uses modernisticly "reserved" layouts but they are bigger and more complex than the games mentioned, and Prey has nothing over them sorry changing gravity and add warp zones dose not replace the fact the levels are small and boxy.

I was under the assumption we were talking about the design only, not the playability, textures, etc. Never played JK (except the demo) so can't comment on that (JK2 was very very boring in design. Ohhh... another room with computer consoles, whoda thunk it! Accurate to the Star Wars universe, but boring!). Even though Halo was really basic, they made great use of what they had. Felt like a space ship & planet. Gotta say the ability to travel on the surface in a circle made it feel really expansive.

Prey = best level design this decade. If all you can say is the points on level design were gravity & warp zones then you're missing the point (besides, that's gameplay). That's It's like saying Doom 1/2 was just about teleporters, HL1 was all about big doors, etc.

I am focusing on sheer level layout not the graphical fodder used to make it look shinny or having paper and coffee cups in a office cubicle none of that crap that should be put in AFTER you get done making a deep level, textures and themes of levels are also SOL, level design and its depth and layout, look at D3 levels to Doom 1s Doom 1 has more depth in layout while D3 might offer more immersion you wont care because you’ve already moved on to the next spot because there’s nothing to keep you around no exploring and the monsters are dead next…

What you think of HL1 I think of prey, HL1 had deeper and better laid out levels than prey, prey has warp points and alt grav zones to reuse a map and offers nothing outside modern level layout themes.

If I forgot a 2 sorry focusing on JK2-3 more than 1, but JK1 was interesting not a corridor shooter layout wise not quite a mazey experience either it had a lot of nooks, think of it as deeper than JK2 but not as deep as say Doom and its clones.

All JK's work on location a lot of its level themes are bases, like HLs is underground lab, theme means squat if the layout is not well laid out, this is why I say FEAR is pretty good despite the repeating setting.

Halo did well and got worse with each game level layout wise, Halo and HL2 has a lot of similarities ok to well laid out small levels, long simi bland large ones. It’s a shame they didn’t keep up with level design in the next Halo games….

Even bioshock has better level design than Prey.... here’s what I think of prey’s level design take HL2 or Q4 add warp points and alt gravity a zones in the end same basic level design..... it does not break the design mold of modern FPSs it just adds a couple features to reuse the same map even if it had HUB level design the small/boxy laidout levels makes it no better than any current FPS, in fact I’ll still say FEAR has the best level design since any FPS past 04 and far cry aint half bad either.

And I somehow doubt they would put intricate level layouts in war sim shooters and that’s the only FPS I stay away from just from the repetitive of them all 0-o

AS far as I know BIoshock is the newest game to offer truly above average modern level design in a FPS and even then it’s not greater than what the industry was capable of 9+ years ago…

And I am still pissed about BS being BS instated of a solid FPS RPG…and don’t get me started on falout3 ;_;

I think we might be arguing stylistic themes(setting and details in workmanship of the design) and not layout (how a map is built,the nooks what goes where,pathing,ect,ect).

Details IE stylistic themes can take a flying leap I am tired of graphics subverting qaulity and depth

The Happy Friar wrote:

copying real world locations != great design. That's duplicating. Anyone can duplicate. It's easy. Even a CRAPPY LEVEL DESIGNER can duplicate something. Anyone notice the first CS/HL2 publicity shots (some on the back of ATI boxes)? They showed shinny floors. Abandoned buildings don't have people who buff the floor on a regular basis. Especially when it's a prison where you're sent to die.

Prey = great design. They took something that looked normal & make it interesting. It was creative. They used all 3 axis. Same with Doom 1/2 & Quake 1/2. They doom something that looked normal but made it really interesting.

In my opinion realism is boring, I agree with The Friar anyone can duplicate something all you have to do is learn the technicals of it, I'd rather see something visionary and artistic. I believe someday when gaming visuals become indiscernable from real life the novelty of realism will wear off, that most will stop caring about how realistic games can look and start embracing artistic stylization.

As far as Old-school Vs. New School I consider the modern style an insult to my intelligence, none of the modern games ever leave you to figure things out for yourself, there is always some event or NCP that prods you further and further towards the end. Most games are trying to emulate the HL series where the game never really gives you time to wander or explore, there is always some kind of scripted event or someone always telling you where to go or what to do next like in Quake4. I miss the old style like in Quake and the Dooms where you are dropped in a level and it's up to you to find the exit and was actually possible to get lost, in some of the old Doom maps I actually needed the automap. When was the last time anyone got lost or stuck in a map, or completed it without finding every secret area or powerup stash? It's been a very, very, long time for me.

CrimsonHead wrote:

The Happy Friar wrote:

copying real world locations != great design. That's duplicating. Anyone can duplicate. It's easy. Even a CRAPPY LEVEL DESIGNER can duplicate something. Anyone notice the first CS/HL2 publicity shots (some on the back of ATI boxes)? They showed shinny floors. Abandoned buildings don't have people who buff the floor on a regular basis. Especially when it's a prison where you're sent to die.

Prey = great design. They took something that looked normal & make it interesting. It was creative. They used all 3 axis. Same with Doom 1/2 & Quake 1/2. They doom something that looked normal but made it really interesting.

In my opinion realism is boring, I agree with The Friar anyone can duplicate something all you have to do is learn the technicals of it, I'd rather see something visionary and artistic. I believe someday when gaming visuals become indiscernable from real life the novelty of realism will wear off, that most will stop caring about how realistic games can look and start embracing artistic stylization.

As far as Old-school Vs. New School I consider the modern style an insult to my intelligence, none of the modern games ever leave you to figure things out for yourself, there is always some event or NCP that prods you further and further towards the end. Most games are trying to emulate the HL series where the game never really gives you time to wander or explore, there is always some kind of scripted event or someone always telling you where to go or what to do next like in Quake4. I miss the old style like in Quake and the Dooms where you are dropped in a level and it's up to you to find the exit and was actually possible to get lost, in some of the old Doom maps I actually needed the automap. When was the last time anyone got lost or stuck in a map, or completed it without finding every secret area or powerup stash? It's been a very, very, long time for me.

Oh god yes I miss the map and the secret counter the most....it gave a sense of completion to a game... now adays they make most action games like the old arcade games click click press a button click click click, nothing but dumb redundancy.....

I have to agree that Jedi Knight is the pinnacle of level design. I kept waiting for games to take a step further, but it never happened. The thing about Jedi Knight is that they'd start by coming up with an exciting and interesting basis for the level (a giant fuel station which requires you to climb through huge fuel pipes or a giant spaceship falling off a cliff: entire level is tilted at a crazy slant, lights are flashing and explosions rip through the ship. Still the best chaotic damaged space ship level I've ever played. You could actually get killed by those random explosions (which were actually random and not scripted), your path wasn't at all clear, and you had a limited amount of time before the ship hit the ground so you were shitting yourself trying to figure out where to go without getting hit with giant sliding crates), and then the level was designed around that concept. This ensured that the levels were all memorable, unique and fun (plus they remembered the vertical aspect of the 3D world). You'd never be retreading another damn hallway with a different texture. The levels themselves were characters, adding a unique flavor to the experience. I also loved how there were so many traps in MP...it made things a lot more exciting trying to get the edge on the player by finding a new secret area with a trap control.

Now as hallway shooters go, I think Doom 3 is very well designed...it's just limited by the nature of the design basis. Half Life 2 is also very well designed for what it is. I also felt like Prey was a breath of fresh air and a step in the right direction (probably the best vertically conscious modern game). The fact remains though that a game from 1997 has not been surpassed in level design, and this is quite a sad state of affairs.

Gabrobot wrote:

I have to agree that Jedi Knight is the pinnacle of level design. I kept waiting for games to take a step further, but it never happened. The thing about Jedi Knight is that they'd start by coming up with an exciting and interesting basis for the level (a giant fuel station which requires you to climb through huge fuel pipes or a giant spaceship falling off a cliff: entire level is tilted at a crazy slant, lights are flashing and explosions rip through the ship. Still the best chaotic damaged space ship level I've ever played. You could actually get killed by those random explosions (which were actually random and not scripted), your path wasn't at all clear, and you had a limited amount of time before the ship hit the ground so you were shitting yourself trying to figure out where to go without getting hit with giant sliding crates), and then the level was designed around that concept. This ensured that the levels were all memorable, unique and fun (plus they remembered the vertical aspect of the 3D world). You'd never be retreading another damn hallway with a different texture. The levels themselves were characters, adding a unique flavor to the experience. I also loved how there were so many traps in MP...it made things a lot more exciting trying to get the edge on the player by finding a new secret area with a trap control.

Now as hallway shooters go, I think Doom 3 is very well designed...it's just limited by the nature of the design basis. Half Life 2 is also very well designed for what it is. I also felt like Prey was a breath of fresh air and a step in the right direction (probably the best vertically conscious modern game). The fact remains though that a game from 1997 has not been surpassed in level design, and this is quite a sad state of affairs.

I can't argue with what you are saying here, altho I feel that Preys over all level design was average the extra bits(warp/grav) were nice but didn't break the mold.

As for overall design HL2 is not bad,Q4 is bearable, even Turok is surprisingly bearable but D3 is bad on every level but aesthetics and thus why I hate the game its all aesthetics in a industry filled with devs that are already shallow....

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

qwertz123 wrote:

Quote:

HL2 and FEAR are the pinnacle of modern level design in a FPS

*ouch* and that here, on d3w? i feel really sad (plays hellammers "thriump of death" once again)

anyway; i started oldschool and i wanna die oldschool, what ever that means.

and really peeps, wait for some motion or better said the first TEST of the mp part! no beta, just TEST, like back in good'ol days. *keeps on dreaming*

Sadly yes, unless you can name better because I have not played it,Far cry is a sand box game on a island so its not that much better, but I can;t think of anything post 02/halo 1 to have better level design than FEAR/HL2 and thats a fact because thats the best the industry has bothered to do....

why did u quote my comment in here? thats really odd cuz i didn't talk about leveldesign, not in the first place.

qwertz123 wrote:

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

qwertz123 wrote:

Quote:

HL2 and FEAR are the pinnacle of modern level design in a FPS

*ouch* and that here, on d3w? i feel really sad (plays hellammers "thriump of death" once again)

anyway; i started oldschool and i wanna die oldschool, what ever that means.

and really peeps, wait for some motion or better said the first TEST of the mp part! no beta, just TEST, like back in good'ol days. *keeps on dreaming*

Sadly yes, unless you can name better because I have not played it,Far cry is a sand box game on a island so its not that much better, but I can;t think of anything post 02/halo 1 to have better level design than FEAR/HL2 and thats a fact because thats the best the industry has bothered to do....

why did u quote my comment in here? thats really odd cuz i didn't talk about leveldesign, not in the first place.

NOOB FOCUS!!!! there is no RTCW2 talk in it thus it goes here *noogies*

Sorry for offending, but personally I didn't like FEAR. It had some neat game mechanics, but the environment design was all extremely box-like and boring modern office buildings. Granted I quit playing it about half way out of boredom so sorry if I missed something earth shattering at the end.

I liked HL2's design as I did Doom3, with the prior edging out in quality of game play. Bioshock is the latest release that I played and I thought the environment was very original and beautiful. Although I haven't played it...yet...Gears of War 2 has amazing design too. Epic went to great lengths to introduce original game play mechanics into their MP, and starting with STALKER the FPS genre saw the addition of some RTS elements, quests and gathering which many FPS games didn't have before. Bioshock uses very imaginative weapons and its game play is very fluid and has a high level of player causality. IMO we are seeing the genre evolve albeit painfully slowly.

DoV_Tomas wrote:

Sorry for offending, but personally I didn't like FEAR. It had some neat game mechanics, but the environment design was all extremely box-like and boring modern office buildings. Granted I quit playing it about half way out of boredom so sorry if I missed something earth shattering at the end.

I liked HL2's design as I did Doom3, with the prior edging out in quality of game play. Bioshock is the latest release that I played and I thought the environment was very original and beautiful. Although I haven't played it...yet...Gears of War 2 has amazing design too. Epic went to great lengths to introduce original game play mechanics into their MP, and starting with STALKER the FPS genre saw the addition of some RTS elements, quests and gathering which many FPS games didn't have before. Bioshock uses very imaginative weapons and its game play is very fluid and has a high level of player causality. IMO we are seeing the genre evolve albeit painfully slowly.

really wish you guys would post game design rants and non RTCW stuff in the other thread >>

Don't get me wrong the best thing about fear is the level layouts for not being total BS and the gameplay mechanics for being neat and the story for begin creepy, what drags it down is lack of fun, grenades should be random drops there needs to be more weapons to keep the fun going as well a a few more solider types....uhg stagnation...fun....

System shock 2 and des ex did all that and better.... much better than the FPS RPGs that came out alter...altho Dark messhia was nto so bad but it was good mostly for the melee combat, BS is a watered down and mutated FPS RPG for dweebs.....altho if it had no connection to SS2 I would dub it a good adventure FPS...but sorry BS is a downgrade the deaf AI the final straw.

GoW is not all that....at least not what I played....then again I have a low tolerance for butt cam(3rdP) games..... dead aspacelooks good tho...but 3rdP kills the immersion for me....

This is a great thread. I'm glad it came up. I agree with most of everyone's observations, and feel it a fresh wind where everyone pretty much in unison knocks Q4 & D3 level-design. I'm in.

I always referred to hallway shooters as "rat in a trap" games. or "only one way to go". Another incredibly dumbed down example would be COD3. stupid *&** game.
and guess what, it failed. People don't like being put through scripted experiences.

I get this from a couple of angles. Developers & Artists in modern AAA games put so much effort into making the content that I don't think that they are as comfortable putting in easter eggs, secret doors and hidden areas, that the player might never find. and it took them weeks to create. Similarly, this makes them uncomfortable with sandboxes as well, where a player might miss a whole area on his way to the goal.

So instead, HL2 cemented in the sort of very scripted, very controlled "arena" type environments, where they have this small area, use tricks to make it look big. focus on reality mimicry, which I also agree is a stupid waste of artist time. and they make sure that you visit every nook & cranny of the area they created, probably in order to meet some sort of "xx hours of play" goal set by their management/design goals.

One game I didn't hear mentioned that I want to mention is GoldenEye, which reminds me of JK in it's abstract level design. Also Oni, or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

I think in earlier times, developers were void of pre-conceived ideas, so they just explored the tools and made abstract things that were cool and fun based on immediate feedback around the office. The canonical example of this would be Romero's Doom levels. It just didn't have a president so mentally, he was free to do whatever he wanted to. That's why they flow so nicely. Now I think we're stuck in a cycle of cross-influence and emulation, where devs are looking at what say, Crysis just did and just copying that with their own spin because they are unsure of themselves. and there's a lot of $$ at stake too.

chiapas wrote:

This is a great thread. I'm glad it came up. I agree with most of everyone's observations, and feel it a fresh wind where everyone pretty much in unison knocks Q4 & D3 level-design. I'm in.

I always referred to hallway shooters as "rat in a trap" games. or "only one way to go". Another incredibly dumbed down example would be COD3. stupid *&** game.
and guess what, it failed. People don't like being put through scripted experiences.

The sad thing is most consumers don't really care about qaulity because they buyinto whatever is being sold like mindless sheeple, I simply refuse to put up with it much anymore either tis good or wont spend money on it.

Quote:

I get this from a couple of angles. Developers & Artists in modern AAA games put so much effort into making the content that I don't think that they are as comfortable putting in easter eggs, secret doors and hidden areas, that the player might never find. and it took them weeks to create. Similarly, this makes them uncomfortable with sandboxes as well, where a player might miss a whole area on his way to the goal.

Also there are issues with "its just a job"/"burn out" they work rather hard and doing it for years you don't want to fight or evolve much anymore.

Quote:

So instead, HL2 cemented in the sort of very scripted, very controlled "arena" type environments, where they have this small area, use tricks to make it look big. focus on reality mimicry, which I also agree is a stupid waste of artist time. and they make sure that you visit every nook & cranny of the area they created, probably in order to meet some sort of "xx hours of play" goal set by their management/design goals.

Sounds about right devs could build better but are limited by limited design goals not to mention time to get the game to the publisher.

Quote:

One game I didn't hear mentioned that I want to mention is GoldenEye, which reminds me of JK in it's abstract level design. Also Oni, or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

Never got to play Goldeneye my first console FPS was Turok and it was luv, even EVO is stuck in the modern design quagmire but managed to come off better than the new one IMO.

Quote:

I think in earlier times, developers were void of pre-conceived ideas, so they just explored the tools and made abstract things that were cool and fun based on immediate feedback around the office. The canonical example of this would be Romero's Doom levels. It just didn't have a president so mentally, he was free to do whatever he wanted to. That's why they flow so nicely. Now I think we're stuck in a cycle of cross-influence and emulation, where devs are looking at what say, Crysis just did and just copying that with their own spin because they are unsure of themselves. and there's a lot of $$ at stake too.

Ever play Daikatana? minus the hype I loved the game the story was iffy but so what it had not only gameplay but a quriky RPG system and more importantly good level design and fun weapons.

Rage looks interesting but I wonder how boxy they are going to make it?

chiapas wrote:

or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

No, you're absolutely right...and it's not a coincidence, it uses the Jedi Knight engine (technically named the Sith engine) and was made by some of the same developers. Actually going off of that, Obi-Wan's levels inherited from the aborted PC version still show signs of what was once probably brilliant level design...there are a lot of random forgotten dead-end passages and holes if you search around that came from when the levels were a lot more open and non-linear. (Obi-Wan was made on an evolution of the Sith engine/tools and was made by the developers who worked on the Jedi Knight expansion pack, Mysteries of the Sith)

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

Rage looks interesting but I wonder how boxy they are going to make it?

<off topic>
Rage is still a long ways off. It sounds like they are already running buggy races and maybe even doing some vehicular combat within the id offices on a nightly basis. The screenshots coming out continue to improve. No doubt it will continue to get more and more gorgeous. Somehow I don't think that they're going to completely re-unify the lighting model again w/ idTech5 because of lastyears Matt Hooper demos where he showed off the new tools and how they could instantly change the gloss, veneer, color, tone of an environment. Ultimately there is more flexibility when you give designers the option of both approaches.

Id's stuff is always solid at the engine level. The real challenge for them is to accept the possibility of new mechanics or gameplay types. These guys are more traditional than a bunch of monks in a monastery.

The thing that bugs me the most about id's overall look is the character models (the humans, not any of the demons). Their faces in particular, but also their clothing and bodies. They look awful. The characters in Doom3 look so completely atrocious, like big styrofoam, polygon face, black teeth, terrible, hardly realistic. The textures aren't good and the meshes could use work. Where HL2's character's look almost real, their eyes follow you around. A lot of other games have, I mean A LOT, like in THE HUNDREDS have way better looking character art than id does. The fact that they don't notice and fix it displays a sort of suspended disbelief on their part where they just make the best out of what they've got and then try to butter up the interviewers with talking points.
</off topic>

Gabrobot wrote:

chiapas wrote:

or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

No, you're absolutely right...and it's not a coincidence, it uses the Jedi Knight engine (technically named the Sith engine) and was made by some of the same developers. Actually going off of that, Obi-Wan's levels inherited from the aborted PC version still show signs of what was once probably brilliant level design...there are a lot of random forgotten dead-end passages and holes if you search around that came from when the levels were a lot more open and non-linear. (Obi-Wan was made on an evolution of the Sith engine/tools and was made by the developers who worked on the Jedi Knight expansion pack, Mysteries of the Sith)

Yes! Score one for good instincts. I remember liking that game a lot. It seemed like I played it for weeks and still never got to the end. The ecosystems in Indy felt sort of alive. Also, I remember that there was a hill climb in a jeep like half-way through that remains today unique from all other gaming experiences I've had.

What is this Obi-Wan you speak of? google turns up that it's a sequel for the Gameboy color. what about the aborted PC version? have you played it?

chiapas wrote:

ZippyDSMlee wrote:

Rage looks interesting but I wonder how boxy they are going to make it?

<off topic>
Rage is still a long ways off. It sounds like they are already running buggy races and maybe even doing some vehicular combat within the id offices on a nightly basis. The screenshots coming out continue to improve. No doubt it will continue to get more and more gorgeous. Somehow I don't think that they're going to completely re-unify the lighting model again w/ idTech5 because of lastyears Matt Hooper demos where he showed off the new tools and how they could instantly change the gloss, veneer, color, tone of an environment. Ultimately there is more flexibility when you give designers the option of both approaches.

Id's stuff is always solid at the engine level. The real challenge for them is to accept the possibility of new mechanics or gameplay types. These guys are more traditional than a bunch of monks in a monastery.

The thing that bugs me the most about id's overall look is the character models (the humans, not any of the demons). Their faces in particular, but also their clothing and bodies. They look awful. The characters in Doom3 look so completely atrocious, like big styrofoam, polygon face, black teeth, terrible, hardly realistic. The textures aren't good and the meshes could use work. Where HL2's character's look almost real, their eyes follow you around. A lot of other games have, I mean A LOT, like in THE HUNDREDS have way better looking character art than id does. The fact that they don't notice and fix it displays a sort of suspended disbelief on their part where they just make the best out of what they've got and then try to butter up the interviewers with talking points.
</off topic>

thats not OT since we are talking designs here and any nuance related to design is not OT

I dunno besides talking different paths at engine building I see ID and Epic as pretty much the same, unreal 2 is as bad as D3 on many levels, mean when you boil it down both suffer from limited level/weapon/monster design.

chiapas wrote:

Gabrobot wrote:

chiapas wrote:

or even Indiana Jones and the Infernal machine (oh boy, I'm gonna get flames) , which had some very creative levels.

No, you're absolutely right...and it's not a coincidence, it uses the Jedi Knight engine (technically named the Sith engine) and was made by some of the same developers. Actually going off of that, Obi-Wan's levels inherited from the aborted PC version still show signs of what was once probably brilliant level design...there are a lot of random forgotten dead-end passages and holes if you search around that came from when the levels were a lot more open and non-linear. (Obi-Wan was made on an evolution of the Sith engine/tools and was made by the developers who worked on the Jedi Knight expansion pack, Mysteries of the Sith)

Yes! Score one for good instincts. I remember liking that game a lot. It seemed like I played it for weeks and still never got to the end. The ecosystems in Indy felt sort of alive. Also, I remember that there was a hill climb in a jeep like half-way through that remains today unique from all other gaming experiences I've had.

What is this Obi-Wan you speak of? google turns up that it's a sequel for the Gameboy color. what about the aborted PC version? have you played it?

theres this
http://pc.ign.com/objects/014/014492.html
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Obi-Wan/dp/B00005RCQJ

and SW galaxies obi wan.

Forgot to I hope they do something with level design in rage I am hoping for at least HL2 style levels this is better than the current industry standard IMO.

I wonder if it be a hub setup where the use a vehicle in large outside areas would come in handy, you can do missions/quests from the city or rest areas and what not....but I know better it will probably be a rail shooter of some sort.... like most FPSs....

chiapas wrote:

Yes! Score one for good instincts. I remember liking that game a lot. It seemed like I played it for weeks and still never got to the end. The ecosystems in Indy felt sort of alive. Also, I remember that there was a hill climb in a jeep like half-way through that remains today unique from all other gaming experiences I've had.

Yeah, I remember there'd be a lot of random creatures like crabs and scorpians running around, plus fish and sharks in the water. And the levels were always changing and introducing something new. The only thing wrong with the game was it's clunky action (shooting at enemies was a real chore).

chiapas wrote:

What is this Obi-Wan you speak of? google turns up that it's a sequel for the Gameboy color. what about the aborted PC version? have you played it?

Back around 2000 Lucasarts announced Episode I: Obi Wan, a PC game following Obi Wan through the events in Episode I. It expanded on things quite a bit and was based around open levels that had multiple routes and missions. The game was a spiritual successor to Jedi Knight, and could be played in both 1st and 3rd person view, although mostly designed for 3rd person because of the focus on the lightsaber. There's an early preview of the game here: http://web.archive.org/web/20001117045000/www.lucasgames.com/obi_e3preview_051500.html

Some screens:

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/action/starwarsobiwan/images.html?page=3

Then Lucasarts canceled the PC version to a huge fan outcry (which apparently included death threats against Lucasarts employees). The game was later re-unveiled as an Xbox game. Though they claimed they had upgraded the graphics, it clearly looked worse (indeed I've played the Xbox version where that first PC screen was taken, and the lighting is essentially full-lit...no lighting detail at all). If you have an Xbox it's probably worth playing just to see what's left of the Lucasarts spark in the original PC levels (the first few levels they tacked on for the Xbox version are beyond awful).

Just look at the contrast between the two versions:

Xbox version:

PC version: