http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7568642.stm

Slightly worrying in my opinion.

Though my biggest question is: What happens if you just download the files & not share it?

From my knowledge if you buy a pirated DVD, you are not breaking the law, but the one distributing is.
So as long as you don't share the file after download your not breaking the law & cannot get prosecuted.

The people you download it from are sharing though.

interesting!

So... when people stop sharing then what will be the excuse for "bad sales" in computer games? Then dev's will admit they have a crappy product or they'll say "the economy is bad!"?

Um... if you're downloading illegal software you're stealing. That tends to be against the law in most places. It doesn't matter if you turn around and share it.

Think of it this way: You walk into a DVD store and steal a DVD. Does it matter whether or not you share that DVD with anyone else? No, you've still stolen a DVD.

Depending on regional laws downloading respectively the possession of a downloaded file can be as illegal as sharing. If you "torrent" a file down, you're sharing it while you download. Same as with any.donkey or similar.

kit89 wrote:

Slightly worrying in my opinion.

Why is this worrying really? I certainly prefer this method of going after piracy, over DRM.

The only problem with this is the continued growth of wireless home networks among the common household. A good portion of them don't know about a closed network. Many of them I bet don't even know if they are connnected to their own router or a neighbors since most wireless routers come out of the box open for 'easy connection'.

I haven't read of a case where someone got screwed because their router was open, just that someone they knew was allowed to use the home network &, on purpose, did something illegal.

but by the same right, BNA! & D3W should be shut down because people can get help with illegal programs even if BNA! doesn't know about it. Same with MS making an OS that lets you run illegal software. Or a game company that lets you use their software illegally.

Quote:

I haven't read of a case where someone got screwed because their router was open, just that someone they knew was allowed to use the home network &, on purpose, did something illegal.

Even if it has happened you may never hear of it cause most of the time the end user is guilty till they prove themselves innocent. If I recieved a letter in the mail that said pay 200$ to us or we are taking you to court, I would be more tempted to pay the fine, even if I honestly didn't download what they said I did. As long as they have that proof the my IP address downloaded said file, it would be my burden to hire all sorts of experts to prove that it in fact wasn't me. The cheaper, easier, shorter route would be to pay the relatively small fine in comparison.

Would you, or anyone else, be willing to be the first case where this happens? Especially when it comes to major cities where you can literally find dozens if not more open networks at any given second on a laptop.

someone could try it on me, I'd have the proof. In the US, it's their job to prove it was me. If my computer is always ip 192.168.1.150 & it was downloaded from 192.168.1.200, that right there would put doubt in people's minds.

Thing is that people who CAN prove their innocence are never gone after, only people who don't know better (which is most) or who are guilty.

Yes in the US it is their job to prove guilty, however when it comes to cases like this, that is hardly the case. An IP address is almost as solid as stone unfortunately when it comes to this situation. The law has not been kept up with technology nor have the people within the courts.

And when they send you that letter, they don't send you your Address on your network. Their proof is your internet Address showing that your Internet address downloaded said file on said date. They have the address, time, date, MD5 checksum of the file downloaded, size, etc. To refute that you need to go through hoops to prove that it wasn't you, and so far the law is not up to par with technology. Its your burden to show then why and how this file was transferred over your Internet connection if it wasn't you getting the file. Innocent till proven guilty goes right out the window.

EDIT

And why should someone who doesn't know better, who could be screwed in this way, have to pay? Thats hardly justice.

It seems they are using the "sue the shit out of these people" as a way to actually make money with that game eh ?

I didn't even know that people still make/buy pinball games. It's like a flash from the early 90s. Wow.

I was always under the impression that in the past, only distribution was illegal, but that various expansions to copyright laws in the USA, Australia and Europe made it illegal to possess downloaded files & download them as well.

Btw the "illegally downloaded software is stealing" argument is contentious at best. It isn't the same thing as stealing a DVD from a shop, a more accurate analogy would be taking the DVD, cloning it, putting the original back on the shelf and walking off with the clone, such that you get the DVD without paying for it, but the shop doesn't lose any copies to shoplifters. Hence the general reference to this as potential lost sales, rather than definite lost sales.

goliathvt wrote:

Um... if you're downloading illegal software you're stealing. That tends to be against the law in most places. It doesn't matter if you turn around and share it.

Think of it this way: You walk into a DVD store and steal a DVD. Does it matter whether or not you share that DVD with anyone else? No, you've still stolen a DVD.

Copying bits and bytes isnt stealing, thats a lie that big media companies keep spreading so that they can sue the world and beyond. I buy something, it's mine to use, give away, or throw to the trashcan if i want. No "license agreement" is gonna tell me what to do with what i bought.

aardwolf wrote:

I buy something, it's mine to use, give away, or throw to the trashcan if i want. No "license agreement" is gonna tell me what to do with what i bought.

but NOT make an exact copy & give that to others. You're rights are with the origional, not any duplicates you make. Same thing with a car, photo, song, logo, etc. You can do whatever you want with THAT copy, but you can't give duplicates to others.

You can hack your copy of pinball all you want, you just can't give others a copy of that pinball.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7568642.stm

Slightly worrying in my opinion.

Though my biggest question is: What happens if you just download the files & not share it?

From my knowledge if you buy a pirated DVD, you are not breaking the law, but the one distributing is.
So as long as you don't share the file after download your not breaking the law & cannot get prosecuted.

The people you download it from are sharing though.

interesting!

So... when people stop sharing then what will be the excuse for "bad sales" in computer games? Then dev's will admit they have a crappy product or they'll say "the economy is bad!"?

Um... if you're downloading illegal software you're stealing. That tends to be against the law in most places. It doesn't matter if you turn around and share it.

Think of it this way: You walk into a DVD store and steal a DVD. Does it matter whether or not you share that DVD with anyone else? No, you've still stolen a DVD.

Depending on regional laws downloading respectively the possession of a downloaded file can be as illegal as sharing. If you "torrent" a file down, you're sharing it while you download. Same as with any.donkey or similar.

kit89 wrote:

Slightly worrying in my opinion.

Why is this worrying really? I certainly prefer this method of going after piracy, over DRM.

The only problem with this is the continued growth of wireless home networks among the common household. A good portion of them don't know about a closed network. Many of them I bet don't even know if they are connnected to their own router or a neighbors since most wireless routers come out of the box open for 'easy connection'.

I haven't read of a case where someone got screwed because their router was open, just that someone they knew was allowed to use the home network &, on purpose, did something illegal.

but by the same right, BNA! & D3W should be shut down because people can get help with illegal programs even if BNA! doesn't know about it. Same with MS making an OS that lets you run illegal software. Or a game company that lets you use their software illegally.

Quote:

I haven't read of a case where someone got screwed because their router was open, just that someone they knew was allowed to use the home network &, on purpose, did something illegal.

Even if it has happened you may never hear of it cause most of the time the end user is guilty till they prove themselves innocent. If I recieved a letter in the mail that said pay 200$ to us or we are taking you to court, I would be more tempted to pay the fine, even if I honestly didn't download what they said I did. As long as they have that proof the my IP address downloaded said file, it would be my burden to hire all sorts of experts to prove that it in fact wasn't me. The cheaper, easier, shorter route would be to pay the relatively small fine in comparison.

Would you, or anyone else, be willing to be the first case where this happens? Especially when it comes to major cities where you can literally find dozens if not more open networks at any given second on a laptop.

someone could try it on me, I'd have the proof. In the US, it's their job to prove it was me. If my computer is always ip 192.168.1.150 & it was downloaded from 192.168.1.200, that right there would put doubt in people's minds.

Thing is that people who CAN prove their innocence are never gone after, only people who don't know better (which is most) or who are guilty.

Yes in the US it is their job to prove guilty, however when it comes to cases like this, that is hardly the case. An IP address is almost as solid as stone unfortunately when it comes to this situation. The law has not been kept up with technology nor have the people within the courts.

And when they send you that letter, they don't send you your Address on your network. Their proof is your internet Address showing that your Internet address downloaded said file on said date. They have the address, time, date, MD5 checksum of the file downloaded, size, etc. To refute that you need to go through hoops to prove that it wasn't you, and so far the law is not up to par with technology. Its your burden to show then why and how this file was transferred over your Internet connection if it wasn't you getting the file. Innocent till proven guilty goes right out the window.

EDIT

And why should someone who doesn't know better, who could be screwed in this way, have to pay? Thats hardly justice.

It seems they are using the "sue the shit out of these people" as a way to actually make money with that game eh ?

I didn't even know that people still make/buy pinball games. It's like a flash from the early 90s. Wow.

I was always under the impression that in the past, only distribution was illegal, but that various expansions to copyright laws in the USA, Australia and Europe made it illegal to possess downloaded files & download them as well.

Btw the "illegally downloaded software is stealing" argument is contentious at best. It isn't the same thing as stealing a DVD from a shop, a more accurate analogy would be taking the DVD, cloning it, putting the original back on the shelf and walking off with the clone, such that you get the DVD without paying for it, but the shop doesn't lose any copies to shoplifters. Hence the general reference to this as potential lost sales, rather than definite lost sales.

goliathvt wrote:

Um... if you're downloading illegal software you're stealing. That tends to be against the law in most places. It doesn't matter if you turn around and share it.

Think of it this way: You walk into a DVD store and steal a DVD. Does it matter whether or not you share that DVD with anyone else? No, you've still stolen a DVD.

Copying bits and bytes isnt stealing, thats a lie that big media companies keep spreading so that they can sue the world and beyond. I buy something, it's mine to use, give away, or throw to the trashcan if i want. No "license agreement" is gonna tell me what to do with what i bought.

aardwolf wrote:

I buy something, it's mine to use, give away, or throw to the trashcan if i want. No "license agreement" is gonna tell me what to do with what i bought.

but NOT make an exact copy & give that to others. You're rights are with the origional, not any duplicates you make. Same thing with a car, photo, song, logo, etc. You can do whatever you want with THAT copy, but you can't give duplicates to others.

You can hack your copy of pinball all you want, you just can't give others a copy of that pinball.