If you can't read the posts preceding these statements, or refuse to believe Israel's history(which goes further back then 10 years by the way), then you will only continue to quote me out of context. In either case, I will not repeat what has already been stated.

Quote:

I just came back from travelling Mid East and Israel couldn't have done a better job to swing all sympathy towards Hamas and away from reality.

Hopefully you had a smooth trip?

Deadite4 wrote:

By taking a definate stance against Israel, you have just in a single post written off the first 35 years of their existance and oppression against them.

And here's where you misunderstand people like me who speak out against Israel's actions. For the most part, the posts here that are critical of Israel are critical of its specific actions of violence and oppression. (Almost) no one has said they are "against" Israel. To the credit of the D3W crowd, I don't think anyone has even insulted them as a people no matter how heated this thread has gotten.

BNA! wrote:

Excellent reply - I wish we had more of them.

Hardly. Those who have spoken out against Israel understand and agree with Deadite4 who believes it's wrong to pick sides between Israel and Palestine. We also understand and agree with him that violence on all sides is terrible and no amount of it should be overlooked. However, he has repeatedly made the assumption and mistake (quoted above from a recent post and time and time before) that any shred of criticism of Israel's action is an indication that the person is somehow "against" Israel.

He has also repeatedly stated that he is not "for" Israel as he defends them but can't seem to believe that the opposite is possible.

Unfortunately, both you and Deadite4 seem to miss our points: it is never wrong to speak out against injustice and, in fact, it is our obligation to do so. It's not Israel we're speaking out against. It's Israel's infliction of injustice that merits our ire.

One can criticize Israel's actions without being "for" or "against" it. Doing and being these things is not mutually exclusive and I'd appreciate an end to the assumption that they need to be. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that speaking out against Israel's terrible massacre of the last several weeks is more in favor of it than anything else. I've often made the case that the most patriotic and democratic thing a U.S. citizen can do is criticize its government. The same applies here, perhaps more so because the U.S. controls Israel's military purse strings and every U.S. American is partly responsible for every death on either side of this conflict.

And, criticism is in Israel's best interest since, as you said, BNA, the overwhelmingly one-sided body count they've perpetrated only continues the worst and most extreme reactions of those who might resort to a violent response and greatly weakens Israel's credibility and moral standing across the entire globe.

Deadite4 wrote:

...or refuse to believe Israel's history(which goes further back then 10 years by the way)...

You know who you are addressing, are you? You know where I live, don't you? You know how it is to grow up being reminded about German history (which goes further back than 11 years by the way) daily, don't you?

Instead you should go back and read my post - "Israel could not have done a better job swinging sympathy towards Hamas".

This is what I wrote - I did not write "look what Isreal did" nor "these poor Hamas people".

Eventually it got lost in translation or people on D3W aren't used (any more) to read a post with less than 500 words.

And thanks, yes, I had a very smooth trip and enjoyed it very much. Always good to widen my horizon even if it's only for a few days.

wal wrote:

pbmax wrote:

If I were to expand on your given answer, I would have to assume that you are ok with genocide and the destruction of Israel. Are you?

I am!

No one who is ok with genocide and the destruction of a country is welcome on D3W.

Rethink this reply or please leave voluntarily. The same applies for everyone else sailing the same wind.

BNA! wrote:

Deadite4 wrote:

...or refuse to believe Israel's history(which goes further back then 10 years by the way)...

You know who you are addressing, are you? You know where I live, don't you? You know how it is to grow up being reminded about German history (which goes further back than 11 years by the way) daily, don't you?

Instead you should go back and read my post - "Israel could not have done a better job swinging sympathy towards Hamas".

This is what I wrote - I did not write "look what Isreal did" nor "these poor Hamas people".

Eventually it got lost in translation or people on D3W aren't used (any more) to read a post with less than 500 words.

And thanks, yes, I had a very smooth trip and enjoyed it very much. Always good to widen my horizon even if it's only for a few days.

err, I guess I should have quoted who I was speaking towards :oops:

. The first portion of my last post was directed at this statement by asmodeus:

Quote:

Kindly point out how the state of Israel is being oppressed.....

It wasn't a stiff reply to anything you said. I was only really directing the last part asking how the trip went to you. Sorry bout the confusion.

Agreed BNA. I finally got around to reading the rest of the earlier posts (my time has been limited lately so I've been replying to only the recent posts I have a chance to see). Wal, while the post in question is more of an indictment against U.S. policy in Iraq and also shows how it would look if another country acted like Israel to invade Israel, the flippant comment about agreeing with genocide is over the line.

And, it seems you've missed the point I tried to make in my previous post about how outrage should be focused on the injustice caused by a people, not the people themselves. It's okay to hate what Israel is doing. It is not okay to hate Israelis.

When you fail to make this distinction, then it is you who become the agent for oppression. Demonizing and dehumanizing a people and wishing them ill or annihilation is the first step down this slippery slope.

U.S. Americans were taught that the natives were "savages." It made it easier to carry out genocide because we didn't see them as people. Israelis and U.S. Americans are taught that Palestinians are "terrorists" and it makes it easier to carry out violence or turn a blind eye to their suffering.

What you're proposing is the same thing... only you're swinging the dehumanization of a people back the other way. Trust me when I say this is not the right way to go. We have far too many examples in history of this set of events and it only makes things worse.

In short: Hate the policies. Hate the actions. Not the people.

Deadite4 wrote:

It wasn't a stiff reply to anything you said. I was only really directing the last part asking how the trip went to you. Sorry bout the confusion.

Thanks, no harm done.

BNA! wrote:

wal wrote:

pbmax wrote:

If I were to expand on your given answer, I would have to assume that you are ok with genocide and the destruction of Israel. Are you?

I am!

No one who is ok with genocide and the destruction of a country is welcome on D3W.

Within the context of what I had just said. I would of hoped that my previous posts suggest that I'm not the type of person who would endorse unwarranted violence. I meant the ones who were left. If we didn't attack places that had people, war would be quite different. Keep in mind what Israel has just actually done. They haven't just stepped over the line, they've used a bloody catapult. I know the whole situation there isn't Israels fault and I haven't really got a problem with what they did even though it doesn't work. What I really have a problem with is how and why they did it. I believe in fairness and honesty. What we did to Iraq wasn't fair and nor is letting another country get away with murder. That phrase doesn't quite do it justice does it? We're making it very easy for people to hate us. The main selling point for terror recruiters is our hypocrisy. THEY'RE RIGHT! I'm removing bomb Israel from my signature, not because I don't believe it should be done, but because it looks bad, although I don't normally give two shits about that. Israel have dug themselves quite a big hole and are likely to be under a lot more attacks than they were. If we bomb Israel with no one in it, we alleviate a lot of the tension felt towards Israel while at the same time making it harder for the terror recruiters to sell their message of the evil ones standing for self- riotousness over fairness, favouritism over equality and Christians/Jews over Muslims/Arabs, thereby saving lives all round. Shite, I am a liberal. I can't imagine that many of the old bomb Iraq brigade had that attitude.

BNA! wrote:

I'm just disappointed Israel accepted this invitation accordingly to the Hamas plan.

Really?

BNA! wrote:

I just came back from travelling Mid East and Israel couldn't have done a better job to swing all sympathy towards Hamas and away from reality.

So you think the worst thing Israel has done lately is harm their own pr

I'll edit that post if you want, it's just an angry comment because I'm mad not just at Israel but the fact that they seem to be able to get away with it just because it's Israel.

BNA! wrote:

Rethink this reply or please leave voluntarily. The same applies for everyone else sailing the same wind.

What honesty? If you want me to go that's fine, just say so. It's probly only a matter of time before I get kicked out anyway. Shame though, I'm going to finish off my mod(s) when I've got a new place sorted. Maybe I could subscribe under a clever alias. Say hello to awl

Edit (while I still can):

goliathvt wrote:

Agreed BNA. I finally got around to reading the rest of the earlier posts (my time has been limited lately so I've been replying to only the recent posts I have a chance to see). Wal, while the post in question is more of an indictment against U.S. policy in Iraq and also shows how it would look if another country acted like Israel to invade Israel, the flippant comment about agreeing with genocide is over the line.

And, it seems you've missed the point I tried to make in my previous post about how outrage should be focused on the injustice caused by a people, not the people themselves. It's okay to hate what Israel is doing. It is not okay to hate Israelis.

When you fail to make this distinction, then it is you who become the agent for oppression. Demonizing and dehumanizing a people and wishing them ill or annihilation is the first step down this slippery slope.

U.S. Americans were taught that the natives were "savages." It made it easier to carry out genocide because we didn't see them as people. Israelis and U.S. Americans are taught that Palestinians are "terrorists" and it makes it easier to carry out violence or turn a blind eye to their suffering.

What you're proposing is the same thing... only you're swinging the dehumanization of a people back the other way. Trust me when I say this is not the right way to go. We have far too many examples in history of this set of events and it only makes things worse.

In short: Hate the policies. Hate the actions. Not the people.

I know! I'm normally preaching it myself. The only comment I made that could be regarded as derogatory to Israelis (other than wanting to shell the shit out of their country) is this one:

wal wrote:

Although the Israeli people could and should do more to oppose than rather then support them. That's easy for me to say though of course. I haven't had to live there.

When I said I haven't had to live there, I meant I can't see it from their perspective no matter how hard I try and maybe I shouldn't be so judgemental. I don't think it's the actual missiles as such, just the knowledge that your neighbours want you wiped out. But that's no excuse for Israel turning out to be even worse, which in my opinion is exactly what they've done. Maybe now things will be different. Hamas suddenly have support. Hopefully now they wont feel like they've been vilified quite so much and now they'll be more open to negotiations. We'll see.

I'm hoping that people assumed from my previous posts that I'm anti-war, and so my out of character attitude towards Israel must have come from hate/prejudice. It's either that or I really need to work on my communication. Or it could just have been that one statement.

pbmax wrote:

DoV_Tomas wrote:

If I were fighting for the survival of my homeland against a well stocked enemy hell bent on annihilating me and my race from the Earth, I would probably use human shields and hide arms in a church too.

Since when does Israel want to annihilate other races? Are you serious?

How naive! That's exactly what a lot them want. More worryingly, it seems to be what their government want as well.

wal wrote:

BNA! wrote:

Rethink this reply or please leave voluntarily. The same applies for everyone else sailing the same wind.

What honesty? If you want me to go that's fine, just say so. It's probly only a matter of time before I get kicked out anyway. Shame though, I'm going to finish off my mod(s) when I've got a new place sorted. Maybe I could subscribe under a clever alias. Say hello to awl

Did you read one single word containing the letters "ban" ? No, you didn't, but you act as if you have read them.

Just distance yourself from idea that genocide is ok. That's all. Don't read more into what I wrote than what is there.