evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:25 am :
Mordenkainen wrote:
evilartist wrote:
While having a compass in the top-middle of the hud has nothing to do with console games (is that what you mean by 'consolited'?),


Console games have to work correctly on old SD tvs which have rounded CRT screens with overscan that hide a noticeably large part of what is sent to it. To make sure gamers with these TVs don't miss critical gameplay elements the HUD is tested on what is called "safe-zone", which means the HUD must fit inside an area roughly 80% the size of the screen (or resolution). If you have Quake4 you can test this by setting r_showSafeArea 1 in the console where you'll see a (red IIRC) strip around the edges of the screen where in the console version no HUD element is positioned.

Obviously, the PC version of games doesn't require this type of safe-zone approach to HUD because most people have LCDs and even old computer CRTs allow you to change screen geometry to make sure the entire image that is rendered is displayed inside the viewable area of the monitor. If the PC version of a game still adheres to the safe-zone restrictions it's consolited. That's why I suggested moving the compass upwards to the edge of the screen, rather than in the safe-zone.

So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right? Then how come they weren't there back when computer monitors were just CRTs, like when Call of Duty 1 & 2 were made? More importantly, Call of Duty 2 & 3 had the traditional round compass even in the console versions (even in the Wii version's #3), and they were doing just fine. Why would they come up with something like this now? I figured Infinity Ward did it in CoD4 because it looked cooler (it was on the bottom, too). While I certainly noticed the change, it sure as hell didn't make any functional difference.

Mordenkainen wrote:
Quote:
Veil energy does regen...it just does so very very fucking slow. I'm not surprised you didn't notice. It's that damn slow, isn't it?


I didn't notice it because I don't have the game. :P Thanks for the heads-up, though I wonder if they have a little veil regen, why not a lot? I don't have the game so I don't know if there are lots of veil pools but doesn't seem very coherent.

Don't comment on Wolfenstein until you've actually played the game (why the hell haven't you played it yet? Don't listen to all the naysayers :P). Aside from a veil faster-regen upgrade (yes, there is one), if they make it go too fast, people will easily abuse it. And trust me, I'm one of those people who would spam the veil just for convenience, even though I don't need it. The game would just be way too easy if I was able to use the veil so much more often. The regen may be really damn slow, but it keeps the gameplay somewhat balanced.



whitewolf@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:10 am :
Quote:
Leave behind the nasty Nazis and take up aim against the modern terrorist threat, and feel free to add in a supernatural element (think Raiders of the Lost Ark with Al Qaeda instead of Nazis).


I dont think adding occult elements to real flesh and blood struggles really does either side of the conflict justice. And "terrorist" is a contentious label. Its all in the mind, or rather in the minds of the propagandists. Not nearly as black and white as evil occult Nazi's, and even those are still people. I think there is a reason why developers are hesitant to touch on more modern conflicts. Regardless of your political views, many innocent civilians have died in Iraq, and having a game set there involving the mowing down of terrorists would not do their suffering justice.

Sometimes fact and fiction need to be set clearly apart. I think its better to stick to blasting away the minions of hell or the infected hordes or whatever.



spirit@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:40 am :
evilartist wrote:
So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right?


No, he didn't say that at all. He said the compass is positioned within the safe zone (instead of at the very top) even in the PC version.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:00 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
I dont think adding occult elements to real flesh and blood struggles really does either side of the conflict justice. And "terrorist" is a contentious label. Its all in the mind, or rather in the minds of the propagandists. Not nearly as black and white as evil occult Nazi's, and even those are still people. I think there is a reason why developers are hesitant to touch on more modern conflicts. Regardless of your political views, many innocent civilians have died in Iraq, and having a game set there involving the mowing down of terrorists would not do their suffering justice.

Sometimes fact and fiction need to be set clearly apart. I think its better to stick to blasting away the minions of hell or the infected hordes or whatever.


Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.



whitewolf@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:25 pm :
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:04 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.


You are too limiting in what the game could be. All you are willing to offer is a one-sided storyline. I say make it possible to choose either side and let the virtual bullets fly and the power drills buzz! Reducing real-life conflict to a mere game is what is happening with absolutely every wargame being produced. There are still people alive who suffered through WW2, what about their families, what about their memories? Perhaps "Extreme Ping Pong" or "Sealy Posturpedic's Pillow Fight" is more up your alley for gaming. No lines need to be drawn, go play censor in some other world.



evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:28 pm :
Brain Trepaning wrote:
Perhaps "Extreme Ping Pong" or "Sealy Posturpedic's Pillow Fight" is more up your alley for gaming. No lines need to be drawn, go play censor in some other world.

I don't know...professional ping pong players may not like that. They went through many hardships to get that spin just right. That emotional trauma just doesn't go away. :P



Mordenkainen@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:16 am :
evilartist wrote:
So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right?


What spirit said.

Quote:
Don't comment on Wolfenstein until you've actually played the game (why the hell haven't you played it yet? Don't listen to all the naysayers :P).


I plan on getting it, just have other games on my plate right now (plowing through SF4, going to pick up RE5 & Batman next).

Quote:
Aside from a veil faster-regen upgrade (yes, there is one), if they make it go too fast, people will easily abuse it. And trust me, I'm one of those people who would spam the veil just for convenience, even though I don't need it. The game would just be way too easy if I was able to use the veil so much more often. The regen may be really damn slow, but it keeps the gameplay somewhat balanced.


Thanks. From what I read the veil is somewhat of a polarising feature with gamers. I never did like the idea of a Zelda light/dark world shift in Wolfenstein but I'll keep an open mind for when I eventually get the game.



whitewolf@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:39 am :
Quote:
There are still people alive who suffered through WW2, what about their families, what about their memories?


The Second World War was a lot less contentious. Hitler wanted to forge his Third Reich, and all the allies agreed that it was necessary to stop him. The war was "justified", loosely speaking. With the war on terror, you have the left-right divide, the question of civil liberties, conflicting ideas about religion, ethnic tension, war crimes and torture on BOTH sides... the list goes on. At the very least, we risk politicising something that before was "just a game."

I find it funny that you you accuse me of advocating censorship when you are actively saying "fact and fiction need not be separated" and that you have no problem with adding fictional elements to a struggle unfolding as we speak. Isn't that what propaganda is all about, obfuscating the truth, blurring the line between fact and fiction. Better to leave a topic alone (what you refer to as "censorship") than have games become just another medium for spreading propaganda like Hollywood does.



Chr1s@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:33 pm :
Mordenkainen wrote:
I never did like the idea of a Zelda light/dark world shift in Wolfenstein but I'll keep an open mind for when I eventually get the game.


Sadly the veil justs feels like an half arsed idea, on paper it sounded great and had the potential to really add something fresh to the game but it would appear that after the first few levels the devs ran out of ideas on how to use it which led to you using the powers at predictable moments there after.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:05 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
The Second World War <censored> was "justified", loosely speaking. With the war on terror, <censored> the list goes on. At the very least, we risk <censored> something that before was "just a game."

I find it funny that you you accuse me of advocating censorship when you are actively <censored> spreading propaganda like Hollywood does.


I recently read a book called "Patient Zero" about Al Qaeda using zombies as weapons of war. I found it highly entertaining, believe it would make a fun video game and movie premise, and it in no way diminished the reality of the war fronts that exist today.



GUInterface@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:55 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
With the war on terror, you have the left-right divide, the question of civil liberties, conflicting ideas about religion, ethnic tension, war crimes and torture on BOTH sides... the list goes on. At the very least, we risk politicising something that before was "just a game."


Some of these things happened in World War 2 as well, you know.



BloodRayne@Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:27 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.

Nonsense. That would mean that movies like The three Kings shouldn't be made (which is actually made to look realistic while it's very much not realistic). Not to mention all the Jag like TV shows and movies about Iraq, that praise the American Army higher than the pope. People are able to separate fact from fiction. If not, then they shouldn't be playing these games, nor should they be in contact with any media that does not portray the whole truth.

You and I know innocent people are being tortured due to the unbiased media out there. How much biased media is there? Do you really think CNN was giving accurate reports on Iraq? Let's talk about disrespect, then let's talk about the American Media and their portrayal of the truth.

The argument just doesn't stick.



spirit@Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:12 pm :
I think the problem with games like Wolfenstein is the same as with things on TV. I doubt that adults will think Wow I played this Wolfenstein game and it shows you what the Nazis were like! Guess they were evil but hey, they had some cool weapons 'n stuff!. I mean there's some really stupid ppl out there but not that stupid.

Children are another story ofc. If I had kids and my ~10yo daughter would tell me that she saw/played that Wolfenstein game at a friend of hers, I'd ask her what she thinks about the game and what she knows about the Nazis.



aardwolf@Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:04 pm :
I personally cant wait for the release of the game "6 days in Falluhah". :)



parsonsbear@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:24 pm :
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/916-Wolfenstein

Pretty clever, I love a good limerick. I was hoping he'd really tear this one up, but i think the rhyming got in the way of evisceration. He did end on **--- though, so that's rough.

Still haven't finished the game due to the loading screen bug.... BOOOOOOOOO!



shaviro@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:38 pm :
Excellent review.
I agree completely with everything in it. My rating for the game was 4/10, so 2/5 fits perfectly ;)



vertex007@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:56 pm :
funny as usual but no 2/5 is too low
my rating 3/5 vanilla
4/5 with my own mods

what is the loading screen bug ? never had an issue with the game so far



parsonsbear@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:29 pm :
Yeah, my current score for this game is more of a racing term than a game one (though, it sorta is...)

DNF = Did Not Finish

Loading screen has something to do with your save file getting corrupted. Too many quicksaves, or going back to previous missions/aborting missions- something causes it to corrupt the save file, and afterwards you can't load any levels.

Happened to me when I went to the black sun level, totally corrupted that campaign. I started over in uber, trying to avoid backtracking through missions, happened again. I might pick up the game again sometime in the future, especially if it's with a mod that allows user-controlled saving. For now though, it's a bust- game breaking bug for me. I've heard that it exists across all platforms.

id/ATVI/Raven haven't addressed the bug either, no news on if it's getting fixed, or an official SDK for that matter.



Kristus@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:41 pm :
I read everything in limerick form now.

As for bugs. None had, I have.... anyway, food.



evilartist@Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:18 am :
vertex007 wrote:
funny as usual but no 2/5 is too low
my rating 3/5 vanilla
4/5 with my own mods

what is the loading screen bug ? never had an issue with the game so far

I made a thread on it right here. Seems to be causing problems for both PC and console version.



evilartist@Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:30 pm :
parsonsbear wrote:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/916-Wolfenstein

Pretty clever, I love a good limerick. I was hoping he'd really tear this one up, but i think the rhyming got in the way of evisceration. He did end on **--- though, so that's rough.

I couldn't agree more with his points. However, I'm also easier to entertain when it comes to FPSs, so I'm sticking with my four out of five stars view.

Here's an article also written by Yahtzee. It's about his take on the mediocrity of today's games, like Wolfenstein. I couldn't have put it better myself.



TelMarine@Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:51 pm :
evilartist wrote:
parsonsbear wrote:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/916-Wolfenstein

Pretty clever, I love a good limerick. I was hoping he'd really tear this one up, but i think the rhyming got in the way of evisceration. He did end on **--- though, so that's rough.

I couldn't agree more with his points. However, I'm also easier to entertain when it comes to FPSs, so I'm sticking with my four out of five stars view.

Here's an article also written by Yahtzee. It's about his take on the mediocrity of today's games, like Wolfenstein. I couldn't have put it better myself.


did he just call Quake a shit game? His opinion on good games is now tainted.

I agree about old style shooters. We need more of them because they get the simple concept of fun down. That's Carmack's view of games. Hopefully Doom4 really gets it right, ditches regenerating health and all these other nagging annoyances that have come to define a first person shooter. I can't believe in some reviews, I think it was for Wolfenstein, that they complained a "modern shooter" didn't have a cover system. Why does every game need a fucking cover system? They don't. Just because one game does it, does not mean every single other game does it. In addition, what is funny is from what I have seen, this "cover system" originated in Gears of War, which was NOT a first person shooter.

Serious Sam and Painkiller were pretty good, but not as good as Doom or Quake. Serious Sam's design better lends itself to co-op then single player imo (even though it is still real fun in single player) because most of the time it is: walk into huge room, they give you a fuck ton of ammo and some health/armor, kill a bunch of monsters in an arena style room, more health/armor respawns, rinse and repeat. Painkiller, the problem with that one imo was each area was boxed off. You entered a room, had the doors closed on you, you had to kill every monster before you could progress. The game needed more freedom and exploration. Also a lot of people don't seem to get that Painkiller was trying to be more like Quake1, not Doom.



evilartist@Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:51 pm :
TelMarine wrote:
did he just call Quake a shit game? His opinion on good games is now tainted.

Hey now, I never said we should take all of his opinions seriously. Quake is fun. :) I'm just saying Yahtzee makes a good point.

TelMarine wrote:
Hopefully Doom4 really gets it right, ditches regenerating health and all these other nagging annoyances that have come to define a first person shooter.

I hope so, too. In fact, there is one type of health system I think could work with some improvements: the one you see in games like Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay. The health only slowly regenerates up to a certain, small point; to me that makes sense. Depending on how grave your wounds are, you'll only be able to suck it up so much...while more serious wounds obviously won't just go away. A great way to improve that would be this: if you're only at one bar left (or like 20% or lower), the health will very slowly decrease to indicate that you're bleeding out. That could be a great way to tell players that, realistically, someone with less than a fifth of their health left can't just go around shooting and running like they have 70% or above, or that it isn't fine to be thinking that they're okay as long as they're above 1%. Just a thought.

TelMarine wrote:
I think it was for Wolfenstein, that they complained a "modern shooter" didn't have a cover system. Why does every game need a fucking cover system? They don't. Just because one game does it, does not mean every single other game does it. In addition, what is funny is from what I have seen, this "cover system" originated in Gears of War, which was NOT a first person shooter.

I don't know why...I guess some people find it too hard to just manually move the analog stick (or keyboard) to get behind an object.

TelMarine wrote:
Serious Sam and Painkiller were pretty good, but not as good as Doom or Quake. Serious Sam's design better lends itself to co-op then single player imo (even though it is still real fun in single player) because most of the time it is: walk into huge room, they give you a fuck ton of ammo and some health/armor, kill a bunch of monsters in an arena style room, more health/armor respawns, rinse and repeat. Painkiller, the problem with that one imo was each area was boxed off. You entered a room, had the doors closed on you, you had to kill every monster before you could progress. The game needed more freedom and exploration. Also a lot of people don't seem to get that Painkiller was trying to be more like Quake1, not Doom.

I loved Painkiller for its satisfying killing, but I don't think it was trying to be like Quake or Doom. It felt more like it was trying to be like Sam, but set in a Quake-like world.



Kristus@Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:51 pm :
I really hated SS and Painkiller.
Neither of them had any good game play to talk about. It was just a bunch of generic monsters that ran at you which you fended off with generic weapons in a generic arena with a layout that even Wolf3d managed to do better.

When people claim they're some sort of legacy of Doom or "Doom style", I get the taste of vomit in my mouth. Yeah there are obvious inspiration from Doom. But neither of the games actually show even the slightest understanding of what it was that made Doom so fucking awesome.

SS and Painkiller are both just a step better than rail-shooters... Actually, I take that back. There have been rail-shooters that I actually enjoyed playing.



vertex007@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:02 am :
I don´t know, I always find his reviews quite funny and entertaining but I don´t consider them much in terms of real rating, is there a title which became more than 2 stars ?

funny thing is after reading that article I ask myself then why such low rating for Wolfenstein ?
apart from small concessions to modern shooter and console ( hud-menu - regen health) it is clearly a good old school shooter in id fashion.
and the shooting is damn fun ! you got your unrealistic weapons arsenal with tesla, leichenfaust, etc.(not limited to a "realistic" max 3 weapons like in many recent shooter) you have to make quick decisions about what weapons (and powers) to use for which enemies depending on the situations..ending up in using more than 3 different weapons/powers in 10 damn busy seconds, to me thats the adrenalin rush, the kick.
add the ability to upgrade, customize your arsenal and powers and you got plenty of awesome gameplay possibilities.
later on there are classical situations with bosses and a lot of enemies in one room,...level design is varied and quite good, you can snipe, go rambo, melee, its all there and it all works very well.
the core is there, I mean wolfenstein is not pretending to be something more/else, hell nowadays its rare, you buy wolfenstein and you get wolfenstein.
understand ?
but no, sales are poor, everyone is badmounting the game, so the message to id and raven is nobody will such a thing anymore..where is the cover system, where are the vehicles, why can´t I fly in this game ?
the next wolfenstein (if there will be one) will be completely screwed up and you all will be whining about how good the wolf 2009 was in comparison....



shaviro@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:32 am :
Quote:
the next wolfenstein (if there will be one) will be completely screwed up and you all will be whining about how good the wolf 2009 was in comparison....


I think this is what applies to Wolf 2009. In my eyes, Wolf 2009 is pretty fucked up and it leaves you longing for the old RTCW which, while it wasn't a superb game, was better than this.

Quote:
funny thing is after reading that article I ask myself then why such low rating for Wolfenstein ?
apart from small concessions to modern shooter and console ( hud-menu - regen health) it is clearly a good old school shooter in id fashion.


The piss poor and contrived game design is what lowers the score on this title considerably.

Quote:
and the shooting is damn fun ! you got your unrealistic weapons arsenal with tesla, leichenfaust, etc.(not limited to a "realistic" max 3 weapons like in many recent shooter) you have to make quick decisions about what weapons (and powers) to use for which enemies depending on the situations..ending up in using more than 3 different weapons/powers in 10 damn busy seconds, to me thats the adrenalin rush, the kick.


Really? I played the game on Death Incarnate and I rarely needed (or wanted) to use the veil powers. I too found the shooting in this game to be fun, but somewhere after the first third of the game, it started to wear out and become repetitive/annoying. The monsters also became increasingly annoying. Enemies like the shield and invisible nazis are really annoying to fight.

Quote:
add the ability to upgrade, customize your arsenal and powers and you got plenty of awesome gameplay possibilities.


Like what? All the upgrades did where increase ammo/damage/accuracy/frequency. Everybody(!) is going to upgrade the weapons they use the most, leaving the opportunity for "gameplay possibilities" behind in the dust.

Quote:
later on there are classical situations with bosses


These awful and contrived boss fights almost completely ruined the game for me. Especially the last couple of boss fights were a joke.

Quote:
level design is varied and quite good


Meh. Ignoring the bad visuals of the levels, I found the city hub to be bleak, dull and uninteresting. The mission levels were all pretty straight forward rail shooter style. Some levels were okay, others were kinda hopeless and uninteresting. Even the butt-ugly "open" farm level was a corridor with invisible fences.

Quote:
you can snipe, go rambo, melee, its all there and it all works very good.


Whether you choose to snipe, go rambo, melee or whatever changes nothing in the progression of the game. You will still meet the same enemies and go through the same route. You can do this in practically all games.

Quote:
the core is there, I mean wolfenstein is not pretending to be something more/else, hell nowadays its rare, you buy wolfenstein and you get wolfenstein.


Excuse me, but what does this game have in common with Wolfenstein3D?
I'd say this game suffers heavily from trying to be something else. Something contemporary and COD-like. I got 0 wolfenstein vibes while playing this game. Wolfenstein3D is not an easy game to "follow up" in terms of style and theme, but this game failed that completely. They didn't even try, they just used RTCW as a stepstone to get even further away from the core of Wolfenstein.

Quote:
but no, sales are poor, everyone is badmounting the game


Sales are poor and everybody is badmouthing the game because the game is poor. There is no global conspiracy here.



vertex007@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:11 pm :
shaviro, sure it is more RTCW than Wolfenstein3D but you really think doom 4 is going to be more doom ?
good luck with that

I mean it is like doom3, as it came out suddenly there was more criticism than appraise, too dark and repetitive for most people, too little doom for the oldschool hardcore fans.

thats the crux with the new wolf too, for the new kiddies is not cool and contemporary enough, for the old 3D fans is not old school enough.
either way I really don´t think it is a piss poor and contrieved game, sorry it is far away from that
to each his own I guess ...



shaviro@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:23 pm :
vertex007 wrote:
shaviro, sure it is more RTCW than Wolfenstein3D but you really think doom 4 is going to be more doom ?
good luck with that


The game will fail if it is not more Doom than Doom3.

Quote:
I mean it is like doom3, as it came out suddenly there was more criticism than appraise, too dark and repetitive for most people, too little doom for the oldschool hardcore fans.


Doom3 received more and harder criticism than it deserved, I would agree there. The game, however, IS closer to mediocre than truly excellent. Doom3 never reached for the stars and it abandoned a lot of what made Doom great. The varied monster cast and somewhat open level design being two key aspects that was lost. On the visual side it was also too repetitive and lacked the colorful and diverse world of Doom. This was a design choice. It's not at all impossible to create a game nowadays that isn't grey and dull. It's a design choice.

Quote:
thats the crux with the new wolf too, for the new kiddies is not cool and contemporary enough, for the old 3D fans is not old school enough.


Maybe if they stop looking over the shoulder of what everbody else is doing and starts trying to do their own thing. It seems like taking a few steps back is illegal these days. It also seems to be internaltional law, that taking a step back means automatically turning things into Serious Sam or Painkiller. Like kristus wrote earlier, those two games have very little in common with Doom, yet people are of the opinion that the games have similar styles and play. It is possible to create a game that expands the Wolf or Doom universe without leaving it behind all-together.

Quote:
either way I really don´t think it is a piss poor and contrieved game, sorry it is far away from that
to each his own I guess ...


I don't think the game is piss-poor either, but the general game design is, and it's probably the most contrived game I've ever played....alongside Quake4.

BJ! BJ! GRAB THE TURRET AND DEFEND AGAINST THE INCOMING FORCES WHILE WE PLANT EXPLOSIVES!
Not grabbing the turret will result in them repeating the same request over and over again. No nazis though.
Grabbing the turret results in a near endless stream of nazis unlike any you'll encounter in the game. This is the template for the whole game.

Quote:
Contrived
obviously planned or forced; artificial; strained: a contrived story.



TinMan@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:54 pm :
shaviro wrote:
Really? I played the game on Death Incarnate and I rarely needed (or wanted) to use the veil powers. I too found the shooting in this game to be fun, but somewhere after the first third of the game, it started to wear out and become repetitive/annoying. The monsters also became increasingly annoying. Enemies like the shield and invisible nazis are really annoying to fight.


That's exactly where you use your powers. Shield guys - use empower. Invisible guys - use vision. Heavy trooper/rocket trooper - use shield.
Do that and pick the right weapon and you can kill them in a few seconds without taking much damage.

But in general I see where you're coming from, all in all it's ridiculously easy even on uber which is one reason you don't need to use powers much beyond that. (mods of course can improve things drastically).

One thing I'm only noticing on my repeat play throughs is certain encounters in the main hub, they must be triggered from coming from a certain direction or something because I didn't come across them my first play, and only notice how now. They are interesting setups of monsters and in one case, objects.



shaviro@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:09 pm :
TinMan wrote:
shaviro wrote:
Really? I played the game on Death Incarnate and I rarely needed (or wanted) to use the veil powers. I too found the shooting in this game to be fun, but somewhere after the first third of the game, it started to wear out and become repetitive/annoying. The monsters also became increasingly annoying. Enemies like the shield and invisible nazis are really annoying to fight.


That's exactly where you use your powers. Shield guys - use empower. Invisible guys - use vision. Heavy trooper/rocket trooper - use shield.
Do that and pick the right weapon and you can kill them in a few seconds without taking much damage.

But in general I see where you're coming from, all in all it's ridiculously easy even on uber which is one reason you don't need to use powers much beyond that. (mods of course can improve things drastically).


Yeah, but I think that may be what bugs me the most. The obvious stabs at trying to justify the veil part of the game. That and the way you discover the invisible nazis is dying and having to reload :D That happened several times to me during my playthrough.



GUInterface@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:14 pm :
The Veil must have been the only thing I really didn't like in this game. It completely breaks it, there's veil recharge pools everywhere so you can exploit the mire power and kill everyone in two seconds. There's absolutely no challenge at all. A good thing would have been removing all the strong bullets/slow-mo/shield gimmicks and giving you new attacks like Undying did with its spell system. Make it so BJ can use his medallion to do things like being able to freeze enemies, make ally despoiled out of corpses, be able to grab objects from far away and throw them as if the medallion were a gravity gun, things like that. These powers aren't particularly new and exciting, but I'm sure they would have been more fun to use instead of the game breaking ones we got.

There are other things that could have been improved too, such as making enemies like the elites, particle cannon grunts and flamethrower soldiers appear more often, do more damage and have way more health. As it stands, the only difficult enemies are the flying rocket launcher soldiers and the assassins which don't appear too often.

However, despite all these problems I enjoyed the game quite a bit and consider it one of the best shooters I've played in the last few years. It's a shame it got badly received, though, because I'm sure the next Wolfenstein (whenever it's released) will now be a grim and gritty shooter with a cover system.



vertex007@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:53 pm :
the veil powers .... you don´t have to use them all the time, the option is there but if you want you can play without using (or better abusing) them, hell, with my mod you don´t even have that damn veil thingy on screen anymore :wink:

I always hear the game is too easy, play on uber, don´t use the veil powers, you won´t survive long.
on uber you die pretty fast, I find the game well balanced, difficulty progressively increases during the campaign.
all I wanted to say, nowadays people complaints over features which are optional, they make a big problem out of things which are easily to get around.
no cover system ? so what ? take cover you d--- a---s, crouch behind something, activate your brain !
(I do miss leaning though)
if still too easy you can mod the game as already be done here, in my mod I left all AI changes out for now, precisely because I find the game well balanced.



shaviro@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:53 pm :
vertex007 wrote:
the veil powers .... you don´t have to use them all the time, the option is there but if you want you can play without using (or better abusing) them, hell, with my mod you don´t even have that damn veil thingy on screen anymore :wink:

I always hear the game is too easy, play on uber, don´t use the veil powers, you won´t survive long.
on uber you die pretty fast, I find the game well balanced, difficulty progressively increases during the campaign.
all I wanted to say, nowadays people complaints over features which are optional, they make a big problem out of things which are easily to get around.
no cover system ? so what ? take cover you d--- a---s, crouch behind something, activate your brain !
(I do miss leaning though)
if still too easy you can mod the game as already be done here, in my mod I left all AI changes out for now, precisely because I find the game well balanced.


Wait. You're trying to defend the game by saying you'll have to mod it and ignore certain aspects of the game to make it challenging and worthwhile? That's not a very solid defence :P



vertex007@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:01 pm :
shaviro wrote:
Wait. You're trying to defend the game by saying you'll have to mod it and ignore certain aspects of the game to make it challenging and worthwhile?


exactly :mrgreen:


but irony aside, I am just saying the game has his flaws but it is by far not as bad as people make out.
come on 2 out of 5, its pure garbage.
with the "right approach" and without false expectations the game delivers and is fun to play imho.



evilartist@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:58 pm :
vertex007 wrote:
hell, with my mod you don´t even have that damn veil thingy on screen anymore :wink:

You act like you're doing people a favor. Does this include the veil meter, too?

vertex007 wrote:
no cover system ? so what ? take cover you d--- a---s, crouch behind something, activate your brain !
(I do miss leaning though)

Exactly! Cover system =/= Necessity.

I completely disagree on leaning, though. It's such a useless feature. I always get spotted when leaning, no matter how discreet I am! I know I suck at stealth in general, but in this case it's ridiculous!

vertex007 wrote:
shaviro wrote:
Wait. You're trying to defend the game by saying you'll have to mod it and ignore certain aspects of the game to make it challenging and worthwhile?


exactly :mrgreen:

Mods: just another way of adjusting games to one's own preferences. His argument is still valid. ;)



vertex007@Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:44 am :
evilartist wrote:
vertex007 wrote:
hell, with my mod you don´t even have that damn veil thingy on screen anymore :wink:

You act like you're doing people a favor. Does this include the veil meter, too?


yes and it looks like this

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1055/shot00003lh.jpg

imo the veil meter is not really necessary, if you are very low on energy the screen goes black and white, when the amulet gets fully recharged you always hear a specific sound if you listen carefully and when you hit an energy pool you can still see and "feel" the recharge vapours until you are full again.

at first I wanted to leave the meter only but then I realized it was better to simply get rid of it, but as I said I only use the powers when absolutely needed so no problems for me.
the cool thing is that it is possible to mod pretty much everything of the hud, you can take the compass, ammo indicator, etc. out if you will.
after I got rid of the amulet I started really enjoying the game again, it looked childish and far too oversized.



shaviro@Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:38 am :
evilartist wrote:
Mods: just another way of adjusting games to one's own preferences. His argument is still valid. ;)


If I spend the 10,000 man-hours it would take to make Wolfenstein a good game, it would STILL not help the game in the ratings. If I buy a brand new car which is supposedly in the triple A class, I don't expect to be spending months in the shop making a good car out of it. I don't expect cold and old food at the restaurant either.

The 'fact' that you have to tweak and mod the game to your liking, as well as ignoring certain aspects of the game in order to make it fun and/or challenging are NOT valid arguments in defence of the game's quality. It's pretty much the opposite.

I respect your liking and 4/5 ratings of the game of course, but those two arguments are just not valid. Let med justify my 2/5 rating of the game. It's not that I wasn't entertained, at least somewhat, during my Wolfenstein playthrough and I don't think it's a horrible or even poor game. I think it's mediocre. I would like to reserve the top 5/5 rating for the exceptional games that only come along once every five years or so.

5/5 - Exceptional
4/5 - Great
3/5 - Good
2/5 - Mediocre
1/5 - Poor
0/5 - Worthless

These are just my opinions and my scale. I personally don't think placing Wolfenstein in the Great category would be fair to the other games in that range. Wolfenstein will be forgotten....hell it's already forgotten ;)



vertex007@Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:18 am :
I see your points, but I said 3/5 vanilla, 4/5 modded

to me it is still more than mediocre, settings and flair alone + shooting mechanics and general fun factor..
add to it that it is still moddable (to some extent), thanks to TinMan, Bellox and others here, which is a big pluspoint in today console ports.
I usually don´t even play truly worthless or mediocre titles, I unistall them after max 30 minutes of crappines and boredom.
everything I managed to play through up untill the credits deserves at least the rating: good.
let´s take a recent example, call of juarez BiB, good but not great or exellent and pretty short, I still consider wolfenstein the better title but in the general press and forums BiB did good, better than wolfenstein and here is the problem for me.



dsm@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:09 pm :
Looks like it was a good decision of mine to skip this game.

I've been a fan of the Wolfenstein franchise since Wolf3d (even went and got myself a PC port of the ol' Apple II game from '81), but a lot of stuff in previews and trailers for the game kinda put me off.

Like taking out my beloved portable gatling gun and replace it with a funky-spunky sci-fi thing that looks like something out of an Unreal Tournament or Quake 3 Arena. Never did like that tesla gun in RtCW, but it looks like 2009 Wolfenstein went even crazier.
Like trying to give the player character a personality (despite him being voiceless in previous incarnations) and only fucking him up, rather than make him more exciting.

I'd rather have a voiceless hero than have him turn into "generic boyscout knight-in-shiny-armour hero #999". Yeah, the voiceless hero is done many times before, but I'd rather that anytime than having a personality I can't really relate to forced on me.

Oh and a few parting words from me:

VELL DONE AMERICAN! GOOD SHOOTING! --- ohhh shaddup!



spirit@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:51 pm :
I like the characters of some games but I agree that the Wolfenstein one is neither likeable nor cool. Boyscout seems to fit.



Hostyle@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:19 pm :
This time he looks and talks very much like Serious Sam.



rebb@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:13 pm :
I'm not too fond of the BJ in this game either, he looks a bit like a douchebag, not fitting into the timeframe at all.

Unless he has had access to occult hair conditioner, hmm - theres a possible prequel in there somewhere.



GUInterface@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:47 pm :
How does BJ sound like Serious Sam? Their voices are completely different.

I think complaining about the character is pure nitpicking, other than one or two 40 second long cutscenes BJ barely has any personality. He's still pretty much the same generic action hero he was in past games.

Also, I love this pattern:

Person #1: Why is this game a Call of Duty/Medal of Honor clone?

Person #2: Why are there paranormal elements in Wolfenstein? I liked the game back when it was a regular World War 2 shooter.



parsonsbear@Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:12 pm :
Well, the COD comparisons all go back to the rate of movement/ironsights issue. The people who complain about the paranormal stuff... probably W:ET fans- I think maybe people who know wolf through that somehow missed the paranormal stuff?

I think one of Yahtzee's clearest points, that i agree with, is that this game was made by committee. This game was never anyone's baby, or didn't care enough to overcome the forces at play from the id/Activision bullshit. Think about the vibe of the original wolf3d development, with Romero suggesting that the player eat dogfood or lap up pools of blood- as compared to someone saying, oh well so and so statistic says that x number of players are more comfortable with health regen...



spirit@Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:39 am :
Got myself a new video card and on full details, some maps and effects look pretty cool. I'd say the SP game is at least ok. MP is another thing. TDM is really stupid and feels like the 90s. That objective mode is ok, it's like ET. After ETQW, it's boring.

A friend of mine thinks about buying it to play some MP together with me. I told him to buy it when it's like 20 bucks. It's not worth 55€ (what I paid for it) imo.

Recently bought FEAR 2 for 40€ and I think that game is much better, even at SP. Alltogether I expected more from Wolfenstein.



evilartist@Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:18 am :
GUInterface wrote:
Person #2: Why are there paranormal elements in Wolfenstein? I liked the game back when it was a regular World War 2 shooter.

Wouldn't that be like before Wolf3d? From Wolf3d and beyond, Wolfenstein was always more than a typical WWII shooter. Sure, Wolf3d only had conventional weapons, but the sci-fi elements were there: zombie nazis, the spear of destiny, Hitler in a mech suit.



chiapas@Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:54 am :
* design by committee, check
* best videogame soundtrack since RtCW, excellent orchestration, top-notch (often unheralded)
* curious: often, it looks like Quake 4 with Swastika flags
* at least they're making an effort at destructible items
* at least they're making en effort at better conversational AI NPCs
* at least they're making an effort at an open world
((though in these last 3 points, you get the feeling that if it weren't for the id veto, they would have actually done it, rather than made a half-assed effort and reneged))
* the main character is an unlikeable fratboy
* cribbed some nice menus & the diary from Oblivion, which I think is a good move

still, an admirable effort. with a good card it looks pretty nice, and the world functions very nicely for the most part. odd combination of D3 ethos, yet striving for something more modern.



spirit@Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:37 am :
Hm, played some more SP and the respawning nazi assholes everywhere in the city are really annoying. Especially those who don't leave any ammo behind.



GUInterface@Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:44 pm :
chiapas wrote:
* design by committee, check
* best videogame soundtrack since RtCW, excellent orchestration, top-notch (often unheralded)
* curious: often, it looks like Quake 4 with Swastika flags
* at least they're making an effort at destructible items
* at least they're making en effort at better conversational AI NPCs
* at least they're making an effort at an open world
((though in these last 3 points, you get the feeling that if it weren't for the id veto, they would have actually done it, rather than made a half-assed effort and reneged))
* the main character is an unlikeable fratboy
* cribbed some nice menus & the diary from Oblivion, which I think is a good move

still, an admirable effort. with a good card it looks pretty nice, and the world functions very nicely for the most part. odd combination of D3 ethos, yet striving for something more modern.


I played through all of Quake 4 a month before Wolfenstein was released and I can safely tell you that the differences in graphics are like day and night.
I'd like to know how BJ is unlikeable as well, since as I said before, he has a very transparent personality.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:25 am :
It's time to get with the present in respects to war games. Leave behind the nasty Nazis and take up aim against the modern terrorist threat, and feel free to add in a supernatural element (think Raiders of the Lost Ark with Al Qaeda instead of Nazis). Nazis are from a time that new gamers know nothing about and old gamers are bored hearing about. There is a new devastating battle happening everyday and that's where the profitable storylines will focus. Maintaining a dead IP just for the sake of it is an ignorant thing to do. The slightest bit of market research (as in NOT online forums) would have shown that the only people who care about WW2 nazi games are those fanbois who think the companies making the games are listening to their praises.

A modern warfare game with a supernatural element would have my money the day it comes out. Throw in some awesomely grotesque monsters and I'll even pre-order. As it is, my next gaming dollars will go to Doom 4 and probably not much else before then. I am an extremely casual gamer, but unique IP will get my financial support, a fact that is doubly certain if editors are released with the game.

Ok, I'm rambling...



chiapas@Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:51 pm :
GUInterface wrote:
I played through all of Quake 4 a month before Wolfenstein was released and I can safely tell you that the differences in graphics are like day and night.
I'd like to know how BJ is unlikeable as well, since as I said before, he has a very transparent personality.

I haven't upgraded my crappy 8-series card, so that may explain why I think it looks like Q4 except with lots of stone wall textures.

and BJ, well, put simply, he's too young. Shouldn't he be getting older and more grizzly as the series ages? But instead he's become a highschool jock in a flight jacket. BJ, like many aspects of the game, feel like the result of focus group testing & marketing research. They're trying to appeal to the broadest audience and not offend anybody (despite the swastikas and nazi references. those don't offend anyone anymore apparently)

Brain Trepaning wrote:
It's time to get with the present in respects to war games. Leave behind the nasty Nazis and take up aim against the modern terrorist threat, and feel free to add in a supernatural element (think Raiders of the Lost Ark with Al Qaeda instead of Nazis).

I Agree!

Exactly. What's more, this game feels like its heart is split in two directions. So far they've thrown in ghosts, aliens, specters, demons, BFGs, super modern guns, spells, extra dimensions, and a bunch of NPCs that feel right out of Oblivion except less fun. The game started as a WWII project, but obviously wanted to be something else.

It's in everybody's best interest if they just left old IP alone, and did something new.



Mordenkainen@Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:50 pm :
vertex007 wrote:
yes and it looks like this

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1055/shot00003lh.jpg



I don't have the game, but as a suggestion, can you move the compass from the consolited "safe-zone" upwards to the edge of the screen? Since I don't have the game I can't ascertain whether removing the amulet is correct but I have to say, on first blush, your HUD looks much, much better.

About designing by committee, especially WRT health-regen: if you have health-regen, why not have veil-regen - why do players have to hunt down those veil pools to recharge? In a WWII setting that's exactly where you expect to find health kits laying around. There are games where it makes sense, Halo you have an energised power armour and you can't expect to find health kits for humans in an alien base but Nazi Germany circa 1944? Worst of all is that health-regen induces foetus-gameplay: it's no more realistic than health-kits and you often lose the challenge (you're always full strength in any given encounter) and you lose the strategy of having to manage where to use a kit and which one to use (the big one that replenishes half your health or this small one since you're at 80% already, etc.). More... once you have health-regen you can't really push the difficulty because now players can't have "health reserves" for a rainy day, so most encounters are of similar strength with less variation thus more likely to be boring.

I think health-regen is a great way to not have your level designers waste time placing the kits, testing the placement of kits, scaling the different encounters depending on availability of kits, etc. You don't have to pay modellers and texture artists to do the kits, you don't need to budget texture memory, code memory for the kits, etc. "Best of all", once you know the player will always have 100hp on any encounter you can be lazy and copy & paste the same 3-4 enemies to different places because if an encounter is balanced, they all are; just make sure you place a crate somewhere the player can hide behind and suckle on his thumb every now and again. :|



evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:41 am :
Mordenkainen wrote:
vertex007 wrote:


I don't have the game, but as a suggestion, can you move the compass from the consolited "safe-zone" upwards to the edge of the screen? Since I don't have the game I can't ascertain whether removing the amulet is correct but I have to say, on first blush, your HUD looks much, much better.

While having a compass in the top-middle of the hud has nothing to do with console games (is that what you mean by 'consolited'?), you should definitely move the compass down to the lower-left for balance. Unfortunately, it's still not gonna look quite right having that horizontal bar in the corner, when it was obviously visually designed for the top-middle of the screen. Perhaps you can find a way to bring back the old round compass from CoD games preceding number 4? That would look great in the lower-left.

Mordenkainen wrote:
About designing by committee, especially WRT health-regen: if you have health-regen, why not have veil-regen - why do players have to hunt down those veil pools to recharge?

Veil energy does regen...it just does so very very fucking slow. I'm not surprised you didn't notice. It's that damn slow, isn't it?



Mordenkainen@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:27 am :
evilartist wrote:
While having a compass in the top-middle of the hud has nothing to do with console games (is that what you mean by 'consolited'?),


Console games have to work correctly on old SD tvs which have rounded CRT screens with overscan that hide a noticeably large part of what is sent to it. To make sure gamers with these TVs don't miss critical gameplay elements the HUD is tested on what is called "safe-zone", which means the HUD must fit inside an area roughly 80% the size of the screen (or resolution). If you have Quake4 you can test this by setting r_showSafeArea 1 in the console where you'll see a (red IIRC) strip around the edges of the screen where in the console version no HUD element is positioned.

Obviously, the PC version of games doesn't require this type of safe-zone approach to HUD because most people have LCDs and even old computer CRTs allow you to change screen geometry to make sure the entire image that is rendered is displayed inside the viewable area of the monitor. If the PC version of a game still adheres to the safe-zone restrictions it's consolited. That's why I suggested moving the compass upwards to the edge of the screen, rather than in the safe-zone.

Quote:
Veil energy does regen...it just does so very very fucking slow. I'm not surprised you didn't notice. It's that damn slow, isn't it?


I didn't notice it because I don't have the game. :P Thanks for the heads-up, though I wonder if they have a little veil regen, why not a lot? I don't have the game so I don't know if there are lots of veil pools but doesn't seem very coherent.



evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:25 am :
Mordenkainen wrote:
evilartist wrote:
While having a compass in the top-middle of the hud has nothing to do with console games (is that what you mean by 'consolited'?),


Console games have to work correctly on old SD tvs which have rounded CRT screens with overscan that hide a noticeably large part of what is sent to it. To make sure gamers with these TVs don't miss critical gameplay elements the HUD is tested on what is called "safe-zone", which means the HUD must fit inside an area roughly 80% the size of the screen (or resolution). If you have Quake4 you can test this by setting r_showSafeArea 1 in the console where you'll see a (red IIRC) strip around the edges of the screen where in the console version no HUD element is positioned.

Obviously, the PC version of games doesn't require this type of safe-zone approach to HUD because most people have LCDs and even old computer CRTs allow you to change screen geometry to make sure the entire image that is rendered is displayed inside the viewable area of the monitor. If the PC version of a game still adheres to the safe-zone restrictions it's consolited. That's why I suggested moving the compass upwards to the edge of the screen, rather than in the safe-zone.

So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right? Then how come they weren't there back when computer monitors were just CRTs, like when Call of Duty 1 & 2 were made? More importantly, Call of Duty 2 & 3 had the traditional round compass even in the console versions (even in the Wii version's #3), and they were doing just fine. Why would they come up with something like this now? I figured Infinity Ward did it in CoD4 because it looked cooler (it was on the bottom, too). While I certainly noticed the change, it sure as hell didn't make any functional difference.

Mordenkainen wrote:
Quote:
Veil energy does regen...it just does so very very fucking slow. I'm not surprised you didn't notice. It's that damn slow, isn't it?


I didn't notice it because I don't have the game. :P Thanks for the heads-up, though I wonder if they have a little veil regen, why not a lot? I don't have the game so I don't know if there are lots of veil pools but doesn't seem very coherent.

Don't comment on Wolfenstein until you've actually played the game (why the hell haven't you played it yet? Don't listen to all the naysayers :P). Aside from a veil faster-regen upgrade (yes, there is one), if they make it go too fast, people will easily abuse it. And trust me, I'm one of those people who would spam the veil just for convenience, even though I don't need it. The game would just be way too easy if I was able to use the veil so much more often. The regen may be really damn slow, but it keeps the gameplay somewhat balanced.



whitewolf@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:10 am :
Quote:
Leave behind the nasty Nazis and take up aim against the modern terrorist threat, and feel free to add in a supernatural element (think Raiders of the Lost Ark with Al Qaeda instead of Nazis).


I dont think adding occult elements to real flesh and blood struggles really does either side of the conflict justice. And "terrorist" is a contentious label. Its all in the mind, or rather in the minds of the propagandists. Not nearly as black and white as evil occult Nazi's, and even those are still people. I think there is a reason why developers are hesitant to touch on more modern conflicts. Regardless of your political views, many innocent civilians have died in Iraq, and having a game set there involving the mowing down of terrorists would not do their suffering justice.

Sometimes fact and fiction need to be set clearly apart. I think its better to stick to blasting away the minions of hell or the infected hordes or whatever.



spirit@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:40 am :
evilartist wrote:
So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right?


No, he didn't say that at all. He said the compass is positioned within the safe zone (instead of at the very top) even in the PC version.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:00 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
I dont think adding occult elements to real flesh and blood struggles really does either side of the conflict justice. And "terrorist" is a contentious label. Its all in the mind, or rather in the minds of the propagandists. Not nearly as black and white as evil occult Nazi's, and even those are still people. I think there is a reason why developers are hesitant to touch on more modern conflicts. Regardless of your political views, many innocent civilians have died in Iraq, and having a game set there involving the mowing down of terrorists would not do their suffering justice.

Sometimes fact and fiction need to be set clearly apart. I think its better to stick to blasting away the minions of hell or the infected hordes or whatever.


Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.



whitewolf@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:25 pm :
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:04 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.


You are too limiting in what the game could be. All you are willing to offer is a one-sided storyline. I say make it possible to choose either side and let the virtual bullets fly and the power drills buzz! Reducing real-life conflict to a mere game is what is happening with absolutely every wargame being produced. There are still people alive who suffered through WW2, what about their families, what about their memories? Perhaps "Extreme Ping Pong" or "Sealy Posturpedic's Pillow Fight" is more up your alley for gaming. No lines need to be drawn, go play censor in some other world.



evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:28 pm :
Brain Trepaning wrote:
Perhaps "Extreme Ping Pong" or "Sealy Posturpedic's Pillow Fight" is more up your alley for gaming. No lines need to be drawn, go play censor in some other world.

I don't know...professional ping pong players may not like that. They went through many hardships to get that spin just right. That emotional trauma just doesn't go away. :P



Mordenkainen@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:16 am :
evilartist wrote:
So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right?


What spirit said.

Quote:
Don't comment on Wolfenstein until you've actually played the game (why the hell haven't you played it yet? Don't listen to all the naysayers :P).


I plan on getting it, just have other games on my plate right now (plowing through SF4, going to pick up RE5 & Batman next).

Quote:
Aside from a veil faster-regen upgrade (yes, there is one), if they make it go too fast, people will easily abuse it. And trust me, I'm one of those people who would spam the veil just for convenience, even though I don't need it. The game would just be way too easy if I was able to use the veil so much more often. The regen may be really damn slow, but it keeps the gameplay somewhat balanced.


Thanks. From what I read the veil is somewhat of a polarising feature with gamers. I never did like the idea of a Zelda light/dark world shift in Wolfenstein but I'll keep an open mind for when I eventually get the game.



whitewolf@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:39 am :
Quote:
There are still people alive who suffered through WW2, what about their families, what about their memories?


The Second World War was a lot less contentious. Hitler wanted to forge his Third Reich, and all the allies agreed that it was necessary to stop him. The war was "justified", loosely speaking. With the war on terror, you have the left-right divide, the question of civil liberties, conflicting ideas about religion, ethnic tension, war crimes and torture on BOTH sides... the list goes on. At the very least, we risk politicising something that before was "just a game."

I find it funny that you you accuse me of advocating censorship when you are actively saying "fact and fiction need not be separated" and that you have no problem with adding fictional elements to a struggle unfolding as we speak. Isn't that what propaganda is all about, obfuscating the truth, blurring the line between fact and fiction. Better to leave a topic alone (what you refer to as "censorship") than have games become just another medium for spreading propaganda like Hollywood does.



Chr1s@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:33 pm :
Mordenkainen wrote:
I never did like the idea of a Zelda light/dark world shift in Wolfenstein but I'll keep an open mind for when I eventually get the game.


Sadly the veil justs feels like an half arsed idea, on paper it sounded great and had the potential to really add something fresh to the game but it would appear that after the first few levels the devs ran out of ideas on how to use it which led to you using the powers at predictable moments there after.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:05 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
The Second World War <censored> was "justified", loosely speaking. With the war on terror, <censored> the list goes on. At the very least, we risk <censored> something that before was "just a game."

I find it funny that you you accuse me of advocating censorship when you are actively <censored> spreading propaganda like Hollywood does.


I recently read a book called "Patient Zero" about Al Qaeda using zombies as weapons of war. I found it highly entertaining, believe it would make a fun video game and movie premise, and it in no way diminished the reality of the war fronts that exist today.



GUInterface@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:55 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
With the war on terror, you have the left-right divide, the question of civil liberties, conflicting ideas about religion, ethnic tension, war crimes and torture on BOTH sides... the list goes on. At the very least, we risk politicising something that before was "just a game."


Some of these things happened in World War 2 as well, you know.



BloodRayne@Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:27 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.

Nonsense. That would mean that movies like The three Kings shouldn't be made (which is actually made to look realistic while it's very much not realistic). Not to mention all the Jag like TV shows and movies about Iraq, that praise the American Army higher than the pope. People are able to separate fact from fiction. If not, then they shouldn't be playing these games, nor should they be in contact with any media that does not portray the whole truth.

You and I know innocent people are being tortured due to the unbiased media out there. How much biased media is there? Do you really think CNN was giving accurate reports on Iraq? Let's talk about disrespect, then let's talk about the American Media and their portrayal of the truth.

The argument just doesn't stick.



spirit@Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:12 pm :
I think the problem with games like Wolfenstein is the same as with things on TV. I doubt that adults will think Wow I played this Wolfenstein game and it shows you what the Nazis were like! Guess they were evil but hey, they had some cool weapons 'n stuff!. I mean there's some really stupid ppl out there but not that stupid.

Children are another story ofc. If I had kids and my ~10yo daughter would tell me that she saw/played that Wolfenstein game at a friend of hers, I'd ask her what she thinks about the game and what she knows about the Nazis.



aardwolf@Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:04 pm :
I personally cant wait for the release of the game "6 days in Falluhah". :)



evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:25 am :
Mordenkainen wrote:
evilartist wrote:
While having a compass in the top-middle of the hud has nothing to do with console games (is that what you mean by 'consolited'?),


Console games have to work correctly on old SD tvs which have rounded CRT screens with overscan that hide a noticeably large part of what is sent to it. To make sure gamers with these TVs don't miss critical gameplay elements the HUD is tested on what is called "safe-zone", which means the HUD must fit inside an area roughly 80% the size of the screen (or resolution). If you have Quake4 you can test this by setting r_showSafeArea 1 in the console where you'll see a (red IIRC) strip around the edges of the screen where in the console version no HUD element is positioned.

Obviously, the PC version of games doesn't require this type of safe-zone approach to HUD because most people have LCDs and even old computer CRTs allow you to change screen geometry to make sure the entire image that is rendered is displayed inside the viewable area of the monitor. If the PC version of a game still adheres to the safe-zone restrictions it's consolited. That's why I suggested moving the compass upwards to the edge of the screen, rather than in the safe-zone.

So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right? Then how come they weren't there back when computer monitors were just CRTs, like when Call of Duty 1 & 2 were made? More importantly, Call of Duty 2 & 3 had the traditional round compass even in the console versions (even in the Wii version's #3), and they were doing just fine. Why would they come up with something like this now? I figured Infinity Ward did it in CoD4 because it looked cooler (it was on the bottom, too). While I certainly noticed the change, it sure as hell didn't make any functional difference.

Mordenkainen wrote:
Quote:
Veil energy does regen...it just does so very very fucking slow. I'm not surprised you didn't notice. It's that damn slow, isn't it?


I didn't notice it because I don't have the game. :P Thanks for the heads-up, though I wonder if they have a little veil regen, why not a lot? I don't have the game so I don't know if there are lots of veil pools but doesn't seem very coherent.

Don't comment on Wolfenstein until you've actually played the game (why the hell haven't you played it yet? Don't listen to all the naysayers :P). Aside from a veil faster-regen upgrade (yes, there is one), if they make it go too fast, people will easily abuse it. And trust me, I'm one of those people who would spam the veil just for convenience, even though I don't need it. The game would just be way too easy if I was able to use the veil so much more often. The regen may be really damn slow, but it keeps the gameplay somewhat balanced.



whitewolf@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:10 am :
Quote:
Leave behind the nasty Nazis and take up aim against the modern terrorist threat, and feel free to add in a supernatural element (think Raiders of the Lost Ark with Al Qaeda instead of Nazis).


I dont think adding occult elements to real flesh and blood struggles really does either side of the conflict justice. And "terrorist" is a contentious label. Its all in the mind, or rather in the minds of the propagandists. Not nearly as black and white as evil occult Nazi's, and even those are still people. I think there is a reason why developers are hesitant to touch on more modern conflicts. Regardless of your political views, many innocent civilians have died in Iraq, and having a game set there involving the mowing down of terrorists would not do their suffering justice.

Sometimes fact and fiction need to be set clearly apart. I think its better to stick to blasting away the minions of hell or the infected hordes or whatever.



spirit@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:40 am :
evilartist wrote:
So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right?


No, he didn't say that at all. He said the compass is positioned within the safe zone (instead of at the very top) even in the PC version.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:00 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
I dont think adding occult elements to real flesh and blood struggles really does either side of the conflict justice. And "terrorist" is a contentious label. Its all in the mind, or rather in the minds of the propagandists. Not nearly as black and white as evil occult Nazi's, and even those are still people. I think there is a reason why developers are hesitant to touch on more modern conflicts. Regardless of your political views, many innocent civilians have died in Iraq, and having a game set there involving the mowing down of terrorists would not do their suffering justice.

Sometimes fact and fiction need to be set clearly apart. I think its better to stick to blasting away the minions of hell or the infected hordes or whatever.


Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.



whitewolf@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:25 pm :
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:04 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.


You are too limiting in what the game could be. All you are willing to offer is a one-sided storyline. I say make it possible to choose either side and let the virtual bullets fly and the power drills buzz! Reducing real-life conflict to a mere game is what is happening with absolutely every wargame being produced. There are still people alive who suffered through WW2, what about their families, what about their memories? Perhaps "Extreme Ping Pong" or "Sealy Posturpedic's Pillow Fight" is more up your alley for gaming. No lines need to be drawn, go play censor in some other world.



evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:28 pm :
Brain Trepaning wrote:
Perhaps "Extreme Ping Pong" or "Sealy Posturpedic's Pillow Fight" is more up your alley for gaming. No lines need to be drawn, go play censor in some other world.

I don't know...professional ping pong players may not like that. They went through many hardships to get that spin just right. That emotional trauma just doesn't go away. :P



Mordenkainen@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:16 am :
evilartist wrote:
So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right?


What spirit said.

Quote:
Don't comment on Wolfenstein until you've actually played the game (why the hell haven't you played it yet? Don't listen to all the naysayers :P).


I plan on getting it, just have other games on my plate right now (plowing through SF4, going to pick up RE5 & Batman next).

Quote:
Aside from a veil faster-regen upgrade (yes, there is one), if they make it go too fast, people will easily abuse it. And trust me, I'm one of those people who would spam the veil just for convenience, even though I don't need it. The game would just be way too easy if I was able to use the veil so much more often. The regen may be really damn slow, but it keeps the gameplay somewhat balanced.


Thanks. From what I read the veil is somewhat of a polarising feature with gamers. I never did like the idea of a Zelda light/dark world shift in Wolfenstein but I'll keep an open mind for when I eventually get the game.



whitewolf@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:39 am :
Quote:
There are still people alive who suffered through WW2, what about their families, what about their memories?


The Second World War was a lot less contentious. Hitler wanted to forge his Third Reich, and all the allies agreed that it was necessary to stop him. The war was "justified", loosely speaking. With the war on terror, you have the left-right divide, the question of civil liberties, conflicting ideas about religion, ethnic tension, war crimes and torture on BOTH sides... the list goes on. At the very least, we risk politicising something that before was "just a game."

I find it funny that you you accuse me of advocating censorship when you are actively saying "fact and fiction need not be separated" and that you have no problem with adding fictional elements to a struggle unfolding as we speak. Isn't that what propaganda is all about, obfuscating the truth, blurring the line between fact and fiction. Better to leave a topic alone (what you refer to as "censorship") than have games become just another medium for spreading propaganda like Hollywood does.



Chr1s@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:33 pm :
Mordenkainen wrote:
I never did like the idea of a Zelda light/dark world shift in Wolfenstein but I'll keep an open mind for when I eventually get the game.


Sadly the veil justs feels like an half arsed idea, on paper it sounded great and had the potential to really add something fresh to the game but it would appear that after the first few levels the devs ran out of ideas on how to use it which led to you using the powers at predictable moments there after.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:05 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
The Second World War <censored> was "justified", loosely speaking. With the war on terror, <censored> the list goes on. At the very least, we risk <censored> something that before was "just a game."

I find it funny that you you accuse me of advocating censorship when you are actively <censored> spreading propaganda like Hollywood does.


I recently read a book called "Patient Zero" about Al Qaeda using zombies as weapons of war. I found it highly entertaining, believe it would make a fun video game and movie premise, and it in no way diminished the reality of the war fronts that exist today.



GUInterface@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:55 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
With the war on terror, you have the left-right divide, the question of civil liberties, conflicting ideas about religion, ethnic tension, war crimes and torture on BOTH sides... the list goes on. At the very least, we risk politicising something that before was "just a game."


Some of these things happened in World War 2 as well, you know.



BloodRayne@Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:27 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.

Nonsense. That would mean that movies like The three Kings shouldn't be made (which is actually made to look realistic while it's very much not realistic). Not to mention all the Jag like TV shows and movies about Iraq, that praise the American Army higher than the pope. People are able to separate fact from fiction. If not, then they shouldn't be playing these games, nor should they be in contact with any media that does not portray the whole truth.

You and I know innocent people are being tortured due to the unbiased media out there. How much biased media is there? Do you really think CNN was giving accurate reports on Iraq? Let's talk about disrespect, then let's talk about the American Media and their portrayal of the truth.

The argument just doesn't stick.



spirit@Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:12 pm :
I think the problem with games like Wolfenstein is the same as with things on TV. I doubt that adults will think Wow I played this Wolfenstein game and it shows you what the Nazis were like! Guess they were evil but hey, they had some cool weapons 'n stuff!. I mean there's some really stupid ppl out there but not that stupid.

Children are another story ofc. If I had kids and my ~10yo daughter would tell me that she saw/played that Wolfenstein game at a friend of hers, I'd ask her what she thinks about the game and what she knows about the Nazis.



aardwolf@Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:04 pm :
I personally cant wait for the release of the game "6 days in Falluhah". :)



parsonsbear@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:24 pm :
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/916-Wolfenstein

Pretty clever, I love a good limerick. I was hoping he'd really tear this one up, but i think the rhyming got in the way of evisceration. He did end on **--- though, so that's rough.

Still haven't finished the game due to the loading screen bug.... BOOOOOOOOO!



shaviro@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:38 pm :
Excellent review.
I agree completely with everything in it. My rating for the game was 4/10, so 2/5 fits perfectly ;)



vertex007@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:56 pm :
funny as usual but no 2/5 is too low
my rating 3/5 vanilla
4/5 with my own mods

what is the loading screen bug ? never had an issue with the game so far



parsonsbear@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:29 pm :
Yeah, my current score for this game is more of a racing term than a game one (though, it sorta is...)

DNF = Did Not Finish

Loading screen has something to do with your save file getting corrupted. Too many quicksaves, or going back to previous missions/aborting missions- something causes it to corrupt the save file, and afterwards you can't load any levels.

Happened to me when I went to the black sun level, totally corrupted that campaign. I started over in uber, trying to avoid backtracking through missions, happened again. I might pick up the game again sometime in the future, especially if it's with a mod that allows user-controlled saving. For now though, it's a bust- game breaking bug for me. I've heard that it exists across all platforms.

id/ATVI/Raven haven't addressed the bug either, no news on if it's getting fixed, or an official SDK for that matter.



Kristus@Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:41 pm :
I read everything in limerick form now.

As for bugs. None had, I have.... anyway, food.



evilartist@Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:18 am :
vertex007 wrote:
funny as usual but no 2/5 is too low
my rating 3/5 vanilla
4/5 with my own mods

what is the loading screen bug ? never had an issue with the game so far

I made a thread on it right here. Seems to be causing problems for both PC and console version.



evilartist@Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:30 pm :
parsonsbear wrote:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/916-Wolfenstein

Pretty clever, I love a good limerick. I was hoping he'd really tear this one up, but i think the rhyming got in the way of evisceration. He did end on **--- though, so that's rough.

I couldn't agree more with his points. However, I'm also easier to entertain when it comes to FPSs, so I'm sticking with my four out of five stars view.

Here's an article also written by Yahtzee. It's about his take on the mediocrity of today's games, like Wolfenstein. I couldn't have put it better myself.



TelMarine@Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:51 pm :
evilartist wrote:
parsonsbear wrote:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/916-Wolfenstein

Pretty clever, I love a good limerick. I was hoping he'd really tear this one up, but i think the rhyming got in the way of evisceration. He did end on **--- though, so that's rough.

I couldn't agree more with his points. However, I'm also easier to entertain when it comes to FPSs, so I'm sticking with my four out of five stars view.

Here's an article also written by Yahtzee. It's about his take on the mediocrity of today's games, like Wolfenstein. I couldn't have put it better myself.


did he just call Quake a shit game? His opinion on good games is now tainted.

I agree about old style shooters. We need more of them because they get the simple concept of fun down. That's Carmack's view of games. Hopefully Doom4 really gets it right, ditches regenerating health and all these other nagging annoyances that have come to define a first person shooter. I can't believe in some reviews, I think it was for Wolfenstein, that they complained a "modern shooter" didn't have a cover system. Why does every game need a fucking cover system? They don't. Just because one game does it, does not mean every single other game does it. In addition, what is funny is from what I have seen, this "cover system" originated in Gears of War, which was NOT a first person shooter.

Serious Sam and Painkiller were pretty good, but not as good as Doom or Quake. Serious Sam's design better lends itself to co-op then single player imo (even though it is still real fun in single player) because most of the time it is: walk into huge room, they give you a fuck ton of ammo and some health/armor, kill a bunch of monsters in an arena style room, more health/armor respawns, rinse and repeat. Painkiller, the problem with that one imo was each area was boxed off. You entered a room, had the doors closed on you, you had to kill every monster before you could progress. The game needed more freedom and exploration. Also a lot of people don't seem to get that Painkiller was trying to be more like Quake1, not Doom.



evilartist@Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:51 pm :
TelMarine wrote:
did he just call Quake a shit game? His opinion on good games is now tainted.

Hey now, I never said we should take all of his opinions seriously. Quake is fun. :) I'm just saying Yahtzee makes a good point.

TelMarine wrote:
Hopefully Doom4 really gets it right, ditches regenerating health and all these other nagging annoyances that have come to define a first person shooter.

I hope so, too. In fact, there is one type of health system I think could work with some improvements: the one you see in games like Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay. The health only slowly regenerates up to a certain, small point; to me that makes sense. Depending on how grave your wounds are, you'll only be able to suck it up so much...while more serious wounds obviously won't just go away. A great way to improve that would be this: if you're only at one bar left (or like 20% or lower), the health will very slowly decrease to indicate that you're bleeding out. That could be a great way to tell players that, realistically, someone with less than a fifth of their health left can't just go around shooting and running like they have 70% or above, or that it isn't fine to be thinking that they're okay as long as they're above 1%. Just a thought.

TelMarine wrote:
I think it was for Wolfenstein, that they complained a "modern shooter" didn't have a cover system. Why does every game need a fucking cover system? They don't. Just because one game does it, does not mean every single other game does it. In addition, what is funny is from what I have seen, this "cover system" originated in Gears of War, which was NOT a first person shooter.

I don't know why...I guess some people find it too hard to just manually move the analog stick (or keyboard) to get behind an object.

TelMarine wrote:
Serious Sam and Painkiller were pretty good, but not as good as Doom or Quake. Serious Sam's design better lends itself to co-op then single player imo (even though it is still real fun in single player) because most of the time it is: walk into huge room, they give you a fuck ton of ammo and some health/armor, kill a bunch of monsters in an arena style room, more health/armor respawns, rinse and repeat. Painkiller, the problem with that one imo was each area was boxed off. You entered a room, had the doors closed on you, you had to kill every monster before you could progress. The game needed more freedom and exploration. Also a lot of people don't seem to get that Painkiller was trying to be more like Quake1, not Doom.

I loved Painkiller for its satisfying killing, but I don't think it was trying to be like Quake or Doom. It felt more like it was trying to be like Sam, but set in a Quake-like world.



Kristus@Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:51 pm :
I really hated SS and Painkiller.
Neither of them had any good game play to talk about. It was just a bunch of generic monsters that ran at you which you fended off with generic weapons in a generic arena with a layout that even Wolf3d managed to do better.

When people claim they're some sort of legacy of Doom or "Doom style", I get the taste of vomit in my mouth. Yeah there are obvious inspiration from Doom. But neither of the games actually show even the slightest understanding of what it was that made Doom so fucking awesome.

SS and Painkiller are both just a step better than rail-shooters... Actually, I take that back. There have been rail-shooters that I actually enjoyed playing.



vertex007@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:02 am :
I don´t know, I always find his reviews quite funny and entertaining but I don´t consider them much in terms of real rating, is there a title which became more than 2 stars ?

funny thing is after reading that article I ask myself then why such low rating for Wolfenstein ?
apart from small concessions to modern shooter and console ( hud-menu - regen health) it is clearly a good old school shooter in id fashion.
and the shooting is damn fun ! you got your unrealistic weapons arsenal with tesla, leichenfaust, etc.(not limited to a "realistic" max 3 weapons like in many recent shooter) you have to make quick decisions about what weapons (and powers) to use for which enemies depending on the situations..ending up in using more than 3 different weapons/powers in 10 damn busy seconds, to me thats the adrenalin rush, the kick.
add the ability to upgrade, customize your arsenal and powers and you got plenty of awesome gameplay possibilities.
later on there are classical situations with bosses and a lot of enemies in one room,...level design is varied and quite good, you can snipe, go rambo, melee, its all there and it all works very well.
the core is there, I mean wolfenstein is not pretending to be something more/else, hell nowadays its rare, you buy wolfenstein and you get wolfenstein.
understand ?
but no, sales are poor, everyone is badmounting the game, so the message to id and raven is nobody will such a thing anymore..where is the cover system, where are the vehicles, why can´t I fly in this game ?
the next wolfenstein (if there will be one) will be completely screwed up and you all will be whining about how good the wolf 2009 was in comparison....



shaviro@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:32 am :
Quote:
the next wolfenstein (if there will be one) will be completely screwed up and you all will be whining about how good the wolf 2009 was in comparison....


I think this is what applies to Wolf 2009. In my eyes, Wolf 2009 is pretty fucked up and it leaves you longing for the old RTCW which, while it wasn't a superb game, was better than this.

Quote:
funny thing is after reading that article I ask myself then why such low rating for Wolfenstein ?
apart from small concessions to modern shooter and console ( hud-menu - regen health) it is clearly a good old school shooter in id fashion.


The piss poor and contrived game design is what lowers the score on this title considerably.

Quote:
and the shooting is damn fun ! you got your unrealistic weapons arsenal with tesla, leichenfaust, etc.(not limited to a "realistic" max 3 weapons like in many recent shooter) you have to make quick decisions about what weapons (and powers) to use for which enemies depending on the situations..ending up in using more than 3 different weapons/powers in 10 damn busy seconds, to me thats the adrenalin rush, the kick.


Really? I played the game on Death Incarnate and I rarely needed (or wanted) to use the veil powers. I too found the shooting in this game to be fun, but somewhere after the first third of the game, it started to wear out and become repetitive/annoying. The monsters also became increasingly annoying. Enemies like the shield and invisible nazis are really annoying to fight.

Quote:
add the ability to upgrade, customize your arsenal and powers and you got plenty of awesome gameplay possibilities.


Like what? All the upgrades did where increase ammo/damage/accuracy/frequency. Everybody(!) is going to upgrade the weapons they use the most, leaving the opportunity for "gameplay possibilities" behind in the dust.

Quote:
later on there are classical situations with bosses


These awful and contrived boss fights almost completely ruined the game for me. Especially the last couple of boss fights were a joke.

Quote:
level design is varied and quite good


Meh. Ignoring the bad visuals of the levels, I found the city hub to be bleak, dull and uninteresting. The mission levels were all pretty straight forward rail shooter style. Some levels were okay, others were kinda hopeless and uninteresting. Even the butt-ugly "open" farm level was a corridor with invisible fences.

Quote:
you can snipe, go rambo, melee, its all there and it all works very good.


Whether you choose to snipe, go rambo, melee or whatever changes nothing in the progression of the game. You will still meet the same enemies and go through the same route. You can do this in practically all games.

Quote:
the core is there, I mean wolfenstein is not pretending to be something more/else, hell nowadays its rare, you buy wolfenstein and you get wolfenstein.


Excuse me, but what does this game have in common with Wolfenstein3D?
I'd say this game suffers heavily from trying to be something else. Something contemporary and COD-like. I got 0 wolfenstein vibes while playing this game. Wolfenstein3D is not an easy game to "follow up" in terms of style and theme, but this game failed that completely. They didn't even try, they just used RTCW as a stepstone to get even further away from the core of Wolfenstein.

Quote:
but no, sales are poor, everyone is badmounting the game


Sales are poor and everybody is badmouthing the game because the game is poor. There is no global conspiracy here.



vertex007@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:11 pm :
shaviro, sure it is more RTCW than Wolfenstein3D but you really think doom 4 is going to be more doom ?
good luck with that

I mean it is like doom3, as it came out suddenly there was more criticism than appraise, too dark and repetitive for most people, too little doom for the oldschool hardcore fans.

thats the crux with the new wolf too, for the new kiddies is not cool and contemporary enough, for the old 3D fans is not old school enough.
either way I really don´t think it is a piss poor and contrieved game, sorry it is far away from that
to each his own I guess ...



shaviro@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:23 pm :
vertex007 wrote:
shaviro, sure it is more RTCW than Wolfenstein3D but you really think doom 4 is going to be more doom ?
good luck with that


The game will fail if it is not more Doom than Doom3.

Quote:
I mean it is like doom3, as it came out suddenly there was more criticism than appraise, too dark and repetitive for most people, too little doom for the oldschool hardcore fans.


Doom3 received more and harder criticism than it deserved, I would agree there. The game, however, IS closer to mediocre than truly excellent. Doom3 never reached for the stars and it abandoned a lot of what made Doom great. The varied monster cast and somewhat open level design being two key aspects that was lost. On the visual side it was also too repetitive and lacked the colorful and diverse world of Doom. This was a design choice. It's not at all impossible to create a game nowadays that isn't grey and dull. It's a design choice.

Quote:
thats the crux with the new wolf too, for the new kiddies is not cool and contemporary enough, for the old 3D fans is not old school enough.


Maybe if they stop looking over the shoulder of what everbody else is doing and starts trying to do their own thing. It seems like taking a few steps back is illegal these days. It also seems to be internaltional law, that taking a step back means automatically turning things into Serious Sam or Painkiller. Like kristus wrote earlier, those two games have very little in common with Doom, yet people are of the opinion that the games have similar styles and play. It is possible to create a game that expands the Wolf or Doom universe without leaving it behind all-together.

Quote:
either way I really don´t think it is a piss poor and contrieved game, sorry it is far away from that
to each his own I guess ...


I don't think the game is piss-poor either, but the general game design is, and it's probably the most contrived game I've ever played....alongside Quake4.

BJ! BJ! GRAB THE TURRET AND DEFEND AGAINST THE INCOMING FORCES WHILE WE PLANT EXPLOSIVES!
Not grabbing the turret will result in them repeating the same request over and over again. No nazis though.
Grabbing the turret results in a near endless stream of nazis unlike any you'll encounter in the game. This is the template for the whole game.

Quote:
Contrived
obviously planned or forced; artificial; strained: a contrived story.



TinMan@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:54 pm :
shaviro wrote:
Really? I played the game on Death Incarnate and I rarely needed (or wanted) to use the veil powers. I too found the shooting in this game to be fun, but somewhere after the first third of the game, it started to wear out and become repetitive/annoying. The monsters also became increasingly annoying. Enemies like the shield and invisible nazis are really annoying to fight.


That's exactly where you use your powers. Shield guys - use empower. Invisible guys - use vision. Heavy trooper/rocket trooper - use shield.
Do that and pick the right weapon and you can kill them in a few seconds without taking much damage.

But in general I see where you're coming from, all in all it's ridiculously easy even on uber which is one reason you don't need to use powers much beyond that. (mods of course can improve things drastically).

One thing I'm only noticing on my repeat play throughs is certain encounters in the main hub, they must be triggered from coming from a certain direction or something because I didn't come across them my first play, and only notice how now. They are interesting setups of monsters and in one case, objects.



shaviro@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:09 pm :
TinMan wrote:
shaviro wrote:
Really? I played the game on Death Incarnate and I rarely needed (or wanted) to use the veil powers. I too found the shooting in this game to be fun, but somewhere after the first third of the game, it started to wear out and become repetitive/annoying. The monsters also became increasingly annoying. Enemies like the shield and invisible nazis are really annoying to fight.


That's exactly where you use your powers. Shield guys - use empower. Invisible guys - use vision. Heavy trooper/rocket trooper - use shield.
Do that and pick the right weapon and you can kill them in a few seconds without taking much damage.

But in general I see where you're coming from, all in all it's ridiculously easy even on uber which is one reason you don't need to use powers much beyond that. (mods of course can improve things drastically).


Yeah, but I think that may be what bugs me the most. The obvious stabs at trying to justify the veil part of the game. That and the way you discover the invisible nazis is dying and having to reload :D That happened several times to me during my playthrough.



GUInterface@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:14 pm :
The Veil must have been the only thing I really didn't like in this game. It completely breaks it, there's veil recharge pools everywhere so you can exploit the mire power and kill everyone in two seconds. There's absolutely no challenge at all. A good thing would have been removing all the strong bullets/slow-mo/shield gimmicks and giving you new attacks like Undying did with its spell system. Make it so BJ can use his medallion to do things like being able to freeze enemies, make ally despoiled out of corpses, be able to grab objects from far away and throw them as if the medallion were a gravity gun, things like that. These powers aren't particularly new and exciting, but I'm sure they would have been more fun to use instead of the game breaking ones we got.

There are other things that could have been improved too, such as making enemies like the elites, particle cannon grunts and flamethrower soldiers appear more often, do more damage and have way more health. As it stands, the only difficult enemies are the flying rocket launcher soldiers and the assassins which don't appear too often.

However, despite all these problems I enjoyed the game quite a bit and consider it one of the best shooters I've played in the last few years. It's a shame it got badly received, though, because I'm sure the next Wolfenstein (whenever it's released) will now be a grim and gritty shooter with a cover system.



vertex007@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:53 pm :
the veil powers .... you don´t have to use them all the time, the option is there but if you want you can play without using (or better abusing) them, hell, with my mod you don´t even have that damn veil thingy on screen anymore :wink:

I always hear the game is too easy, play on uber, don´t use the veil powers, you won´t survive long.
on uber you die pretty fast, I find the game well balanced, difficulty progressively increases during the campaign.
all I wanted to say, nowadays people complaints over features which are optional, they make a big problem out of things which are easily to get around.
no cover system ? so what ? take cover you d--- a---s, crouch behind something, activate your brain !
(I do miss leaning though)
if still too easy you can mod the game as already be done here, in my mod I left all AI changes out for now, precisely because I find the game well balanced.



shaviro@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:53 pm :
vertex007 wrote:
the veil powers .... you don´t have to use them all the time, the option is there but if you want you can play without using (or better abusing) them, hell, with my mod you don´t even have that damn veil thingy on screen anymore :wink:

I always hear the game is too easy, play on uber, don´t use the veil powers, you won´t survive long.
on uber you die pretty fast, I find the game well balanced, difficulty progressively increases during the campaign.
all I wanted to say, nowadays people complaints over features which are optional, they make a big problem out of things which are easily to get around.
no cover system ? so what ? take cover you d--- a---s, crouch behind something, activate your brain !
(I do miss leaning though)
if still too easy you can mod the game as already be done here, in my mod I left all AI changes out for now, precisely because I find the game well balanced.


Wait. You're trying to defend the game by saying you'll have to mod it and ignore certain aspects of the game to make it challenging and worthwhile? That's not a very solid defence :P



vertex007@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:01 pm :
shaviro wrote:
Wait. You're trying to defend the game by saying you'll have to mod it and ignore certain aspects of the game to make it challenging and worthwhile?


exactly :mrgreen:


but irony aside, I am just saying the game has his flaws but it is by far not as bad as people make out.
come on 2 out of 5, its pure garbage.
with the "right approach" and without false expectations the game delivers and is fun to play imho.



evilartist@Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:58 pm :
vertex007 wrote:
hell, with my mod you don´t even have that damn veil thingy on screen anymore :wink:

You act like you're doing people a favor. Does this include the veil meter, too?

vertex007 wrote:
no cover system ? so what ? take cover you d--- a---s, crouch behind something, activate your brain !
(I do miss leaning though)

Exactly! Cover system =/= Necessity.

I completely disagree on leaning, though. It's such a useless feature. I always get spotted when leaning, no matter how discreet I am! I know I suck at stealth in general, but in this case it's ridiculous!

vertex007 wrote:
shaviro wrote:
Wait. You're trying to defend the game by saying you'll have to mod it and ignore certain aspects of the game to make it challenging and worthwhile?


exactly :mrgreen:

Mods: just another way of adjusting games to one's own preferences. His argument is still valid. ;)



vertex007@Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:44 am :
evilartist wrote:
vertex007 wrote:
hell, with my mod you don´t even have that damn veil thingy on screen anymore :wink:

You act like you're doing people a favor. Does this include the veil meter, too?


yes and it looks like this

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1055/shot00003lh.jpg

imo the veil meter is not really necessary, if you are very low on energy the screen goes black and white, when the amulet gets fully recharged you always hear a specific sound if you listen carefully and when you hit an energy pool you can still see and "feel" the recharge vapours until you are full again.

at first I wanted to leave the meter only but then I realized it was better to simply get rid of it, but as I said I only use the powers when absolutely needed so no problems for me.
the cool thing is that it is possible to mod pretty much everything of the hud, you can take the compass, ammo indicator, etc. out if you will.
after I got rid of the amulet I started really enjoying the game again, it looked childish and far too oversized.



shaviro@Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:38 am :
evilartist wrote:
Mods: just another way of adjusting games to one's own preferences. His argument is still valid. ;)


If I spend the 10,000 man-hours it would take to make Wolfenstein a good game, it would STILL not help the game in the ratings. If I buy a brand new car which is supposedly in the triple A class, I don't expect to be spending months in the shop making a good car out of it. I don't expect cold and old food at the restaurant either.

The 'fact' that you have to tweak and mod the game to your liking, as well as ignoring certain aspects of the game in order to make it fun and/or challenging are NOT valid arguments in defence of the game's quality. It's pretty much the opposite.

I respect your liking and 4/5 ratings of the game of course, but those two arguments are just not valid. Let med justify my 2/5 rating of the game. It's not that I wasn't entertained, at least somewhat, during my Wolfenstein playthrough and I don't think it's a horrible or even poor game. I think it's mediocre. I would like to reserve the top 5/5 rating for the exceptional games that only come along once every five years or so.

5/5 - Exceptional
4/5 - Great
3/5 - Good
2/5 - Mediocre
1/5 - Poor
0/5 - Worthless

These are just my opinions and my scale. I personally don't think placing Wolfenstein in the Great category would be fair to the other games in that range. Wolfenstein will be forgotten....hell it's already forgotten ;)



vertex007@Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:18 am :
I see your points, but I said 3/5 vanilla, 4/5 modded

to me it is still more than mediocre, settings and flair alone + shooting mechanics and general fun factor..
add to it that it is still moddable (to some extent), thanks to TinMan, Bellox and others here, which is a big pluspoint in today console ports.
I usually don´t even play truly worthless or mediocre titles, I unistall them after max 30 minutes of crappines and boredom.
everything I managed to play through up untill the credits deserves at least the rating: good.
let´s take a recent example, call of juarez BiB, good but not great or exellent and pretty short, I still consider wolfenstein the better title but in the general press and forums BiB did good, better than wolfenstein and here is the problem for me.



dsm@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:09 pm :
Looks like it was a good decision of mine to skip this game.

I've been a fan of the Wolfenstein franchise since Wolf3d (even went and got myself a PC port of the ol' Apple II game from '81), but a lot of stuff in previews and trailers for the game kinda put me off.

Like taking out my beloved portable gatling gun and replace it with a funky-spunky sci-fi thing that looks like something out of an Unreal Tournament or Quake 3 Arena. Never did like that tesla gun in RtCW, but it looks like 2009 Wolfenstein went even crazier.
Like trying to give the player character a personality (despite him being voiceless in previous incarnations) and only fucking him up, rather than make him more exciting.

I'd rather have a voiceless hero than have him turn into "generic boyscout knight-in-shiny-armour hero #999". Yeah, the voiceless hero is done many times before, but I'd rather that anytime than having a personality I can't really relate to forced on me.

Oh and a few parting words from me:

VELL DONE AMERICAN! GOOD SHOOTING! --- ohhh shaddup!



spirit@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:51 pm :
I like the characters of some games but I agree that the Wolfenstein one is neither likeable nor cool. Boyscout seems to fit.



Hostyle@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:19 pm :
This time he looks and talks very much like Serious Sam.



rebb@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:13 pm :
I'm not too fond of the BJ in this game either, he looks a bit like a douchebag, not fitting into the timeframe at all.

Unless he has had access to occult hair conditioner, hmm - theres a possible prequel in there somewhere.



GUInterface@Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:47 pm :
How does BJ sound like Serious Sam? Their voices are completely different.

I think complaining about the character is pure nitpicking, other than one or two 40 second long cutscenes BJ barely has any personality. He's still pretty much the same generic action hero he was in past games.

Also, I love this pattern:

Person #1: Why is this game a Call of Duty/Medal of Honor clone?

Person #2: Why are there paranormal elements in Wolfenstein? I liked the game back when it was a regular World War 2 shooter.



parsonsbear@Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:12 pm :
Well, the COD comparisons all go back to the rate of movement/ironsights issue. The people who complain about the paranormal stuff... probably W:ET fans- I think maybe people who know wolf through that somehow missed the paranormal stuff?

I think one of Yahtzee's clearest points, that i agree with, is that this game was made by committee. This game was never anyone's baby, or didn't care enough to overcome the forces at play from the id/Activision bullshit. Think about the vibe of the original wolf3d development, with Romero suggesting that the player eat dogfood or lap up pools of blood- as compared to someone saying, oh well so and so statistic says that x number of players are more comfortable with health regen...



spirit@Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:39 am :
Got myself a new video card and on full details, some maps and effects look pretty cool. I'd say the SP game is at least ok. MP is another thing. TDM is really stupid and feels like the 90s. That objective mode is ok, it's like ET. After ETQW, it's boring.

A friend of mine thinks about buying it to play some MP together with me. I told him to buy it when it's like 20 bucks. It's not worth 55€ (what I paid for it) imo.

Recently bought FEAR 2 for 40€ and I think that game is much better, even at SP. Alltogether I expected more from Wolfenstein.



evilartist@Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:18 am :
GUInterface wrote:
Person #2: Why are there paranormal elements in Wolfenstein? I liked the game back when it was a regular World War 2 shooter.

Wouldn't that be like before Wolf3d? From Wolf3d and beyond, Wolfenstein was always more than a typical WWII shooter. Sure, Wolf3d only had conventional weapons, but the sci-fi elements were there: zombie nazis, the spear of destiny, Hitler in a mech suit.



chiapas@Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:54 am :
* design by committee, check
* best videogame soundtrack since RtCW, excellent orchestration, top-notch (often unheralded)
* curious: often, it looks like Quake 4 with Swastika flags
* at least they're making an effort at destructible items
* at least they're making en effort at better conversational AI NPCs
* at least they're making an effort at an open world
((though in these last 3 points, you get the feeling that if it weren't for the id veto, they would have actually done it, rather than made a half-assed effort and reneged))
* the main character is an unlikeable fratboy
* cribbed some nice menus & the diary from Oblivion, which I think is a good move

still, an admirable effort. with a good card it looks pretty nice, and the world functions very nicely for the most part. odd combination of D3 ethos, yet striving for something more modern.



spirit@Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:37 am :
Hm, played some more SP and the respawning nazi assholes everywhere in the city are really annoying. Especially those who don't leave any ammo behind.



GUInterface@Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:44 pm :
chiapas wrote:
* design by committee, check
* best videogame soundtrack since RtCW, excellent orchestration, top-notch (often unheralded)
* curious: often, it looks like Quake 4 with Swastika flags
* at least they're making an effort at destructible items
* at least they're making en effort at better conversational AI NPCs
* at least they're making an effort at an open world
((though in these last 3 points, you get the feeling that if it weren't for the id veto, they would have actually done it, rather than made a half-assed effort and reneged))
* the main character is an unlikeable fratboy
* cribbed some nice menus & the diary from Oblivion, which I think is a good move

still, an admirable effort. with a good card it looks pretty nice, and the world functions very nicely for the most part. odd combination of D3 ethos, yet striving for something more modern.


I played through all of Quake 4 a month before Wolfenstein was released and I can safely tell you that the differences in graphics are like day and night.
I'd like to know how BJ is unlikeable as well, since as I said before, he has a very transparent personality.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:25 am :
It's time to get with the present in respects to war games. Leave behind the nasty Nazis and take up aim against the modern terrorist threat, and feel free to add in a supernatural element (think Raiders of the Lost Ark with Al Qaeda instead of Nazis). Nazis are from a time that new gamers know nothing about and old gamers are bored hearing about. There is a new devastating battle happening everyday and that's where the profitable storylines will focus. Maintaining a dead IP just for the sake of it is an ignorant thing to do. The slightest bit of market research (as in NOT online forums) would have shown that the only people who care about WW2 nazi games are those fanbois who think the companies making the games are listening to their praises.

A modern warfare game with a supernatural element would have my money the day it comes out. Throw in some awesomely grotesque monsters and I'll even pre-order. As it is, my next gaming dollars will go to Doom 4 and probably not much else before then. I am an extremely casual gamer, but unique IP will get my financial support, a fact that is doubly certain if editors are released with the game.

Ok, I'm rambling...



chiapas@Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:51 pm :
GUInterface wrote:
I played through all of Quake 4 a month before Wolfenstein was released and I can safely tell you that the differences in graphics are like day and night.
I'd like to know how BJ is unlikeable as well, since as I said before, he has a very transparent personality.

I haven't upgraded my crappy 8-series card, so that may explain why I think it looks like Q4 except with lots of stone wall textures.

and BJ, well, put simply, he's too young. Shouldn't he be getting older and more grizzly as the series ages? But instead he's become a highschool jock in a flight jacket. BJ, like many aspects of the game, feel like the result of focus group testing & marketing research. They're trying to appeal to the broadest audience and not offend anybody (despite the swastikas and nazi references. those don't offend anyone anymore apparently)

Brain Trepaning wrote:
It's time to get with the present in respects to war games. Leave behind the nasty Nazis and take up aim against the modern terrorist threat, and feel free to add in a supernatural element (think Raiders of the Lost Ark with Al Qaeda instead of Nazis).

I Agree!

Exactly. What's more, this game feels like its heart is split in two directions. So far they've thrown in ghosts, aliens, specters, demons, BFGs, super modern guns, spells, extra dimensions, and a bunch of NPCs that feel right out of Oblivion except less fun. The game started as a WWII project, but obviously wanted to be something else.

It's in everybody's best interest if they just left old IP alone, and did something new.



Mordenkainen@Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:50 pm :
vertex007 wrote:
yes and it looks like this

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1055/shot00003lh.jpg



I don't have the game, but as a suggestion, can you move the compass from the consolited "safe-zone" upwards to the edge of the screen? Since I don't have the game I can't ascertain whether removing the amulet is correct but I have to say, on first blush, your HUD looks much, much better.

About designing by committee, especially WRT health-regen: if you have health-regen, why not have veil-regen - why do players have to hunt down those veil pools to recharge? In a WWII setting that's exactly where you expect to find health kits laying around. There are games where it makes sense, Halo you have an energised power armour and you can't expect to find health kits for humans in an alien base but Nazi Germany circa 1944? Worst of all is that health-regen induces foetus-gameplay: it's no more realistic than health-kits and you often lose the challenge (you're always full strength in any given encounter) and you lose the strategy of having to manage where to use a kit and which one to use (the big one that replenishes half your health or this small one since you're at 80% already, etc.). More... once you have health-regen you can't really push the difficulty because now players can't have "health reserves" for a rainy day, so most encounters are of similar strength with less variation thus more likely to be boring.

I think health-regen is a great way to not have your level designers waste time placing the kits, testing the placement of kits, scaling the different encounters depending on availability of kits, etc. You don't have to pay modellers and texture artists to do the kits, you don't need to budget texture memory, code memory for the kits, etc. "Best of all", once you know the player will always have 100hp on any encounter you can be lazy and copy & paste the same 3-4 enemies to different places because if an encounter is balanced, they all are; just make sure you place a crate somewhere the player can hide behind and suckle on his thumb every now and again. :|



evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:41 am :
Mordenkainen wrote:
vertex007 wrote:


I don't have the game, but as a suggestion, can you move the compass from the consolited "safe-zone" upwards to the edge of the screen? Since I don't have the game I can't ascertain whether removing the amulet is correct but I have to say, on first blush, your HUD looks much, much better.

While having a compass in the top-middle of the hud has nothing to do with console games (is that what you mean by 'consolited'?), you should definitely move the compass down to the lower-left for balance. Unfortunately, it's still not gonna look quite right having that horizontal bar in the corner, when it was obviously visually designed for the top-middle of the screen. Perhaps you can find a way to bring back the old round compass from CoD games preceding number 4? That would look great in the lower-left.

Mordenkainen wrote:
About designing by committee, especially WRT health-regen: if you have health-regen, why not have veil-regen - why do players have to hunt down those veil pools to recharge?

Veil energy does regen...it just does so very very fucking slow. I'm not surprised you didn't notice. It's that damn slow, isn't it?



Mordenkainen@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:27 am :
evilartist wrote:
While having a compass in the top-middle of the hud has nothing to do with console games (is that what you mean by 'consolited'?),


Console games have to work correctly on old SD tvs which have rounded CRT screens with overscan that hide a noticeably large part of what is sent to it. To make sure gamers with these TVs don't miss critical gameplay elements the HUD is tested on what is called "safe-zone", which means the HUD must fit inside an area roughly 80% the size of the screen (or resolution). If you have Quake4 you can test this by setting r_showSafeArea 1 in the console where you'll see a (red IIRC) strip around the edges of the screen where in the console version no HUD element is positioned.

Obviously, the PC version of games doesn't require this type of safe-zone approach to HUD because most people have LCDs and even old computer CRTs allow you to change screen geometry to make sure the entire image that is rendered is displayed inside the viewable area of the monitor. If the PC version of a game still adheres to the safe-zone restrictions it's consolited. That's why I suggested moving the compass upwards to the edge of the screen, rather than in the safe-zone.

Quote:
Veil energy does regen...it just does so very very fucking slow. I'm not surprised you didn't notice. It's that damn slow, isn't it?


I didn't notice it because I don't have the game. :P Thanks for the heads-up, though I wonder if they have a little veil regen, why not a lot? I don't have the game so I don't know if there are lots of veil pools but doesn't seem very coherent.



evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:25 am :
Mordenkainen wrote:
evilartist wrote:
While having a compass in the top-middle of the hud has nothing to do with console games (is that what you mean by 'consolited'?),


Console games have to work correctly on old SD tvs which have rounded CRT screens with overscan that hide a noticeably large part of what is sent to it. To make sure gamers with these TVs don't miss critical gameplay elements the HUD is tested on what is called "safe-zone", which means the HUD must fit inside an area roughly 80% the size of the screen (or resolution). If you have Quake4 you can test this by setting r_showSafeArea 1 in the console where you'll see a (red IIRC) strip around the edges of the screen where in the console version no HUD element is positioned.

Obviously, the PC version of games doesn't require this type of safe-zone approach to HUD because most people have LCDs and even old computer CRTs allow you to change screen geometry to make sure the entire image that is rendered is displayed inside the viewable area of the monitor. If the PC version of a game still adheres to the safe-zone restrictions it's consolited. That's why I suggested moving the compass upwards to the edge of the screen, rather than in the safe-zone.

So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right? Then how come they weren't there back when computer monitors were just CRTs, like when Call of Duty 1 & 2 were made? More importantly, Call of Duty 2 & 3 had the traditional round compass even in the console versions (even in the Wii version's #3), and they were doing just fine. Why would they come up with something like this now? I figured Infinity Ward did it in CoD4 because it looked cooler (it was on the bottom, too). While I certainly noticed the change, it sure as hell didn't make any functional difference.

Mordenkainen wrote:
Quote:
Veil energy does regen...it just does so very very fucking slow. I'm not surprised you didn't notice. It's that damn slow, isn't it?


I didn't notice it because I don't have the game. :P Thanks for the heads-up, though I wonder if they have a little veil regen, why not a lot? I don't have the game so I don't know if there are lots of veil pools but doesn't seem very coherent.

Don't comment on Wolfenstein until you've actually played the game (why the hell haven't you played it yet? Don't listen to all the naysayers :P). Aside from a veil faster-regen upgrade (yes, there is one), if they make it go too fast, people will easily abuse it. And trust me, I'm one of those people who would spam the veil just for convenience, even though I don't need it. The game would just be way too easy if I was able to use the veil so much more often. The regen may be really damn slow, but it keeps the gameplay somewhat balanced.



whitewolf@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:10 am :
Quote:
Leave behind the nasty Nazis and take up aim against the modern terrorist threat, and feel free to add in a supernatural element (think Raiders of the Lost Ark with Al Qaeda instead of Nazis).


I dont think adding occult elements to real flesh and blood struggles really does either side of the conflict justice. And "terrorist" is a contentious label. Its all in the mind, or rather in the minds of the propagandists. Not nearly as black and white as evil occult Nazi's, and even those are still people. I think there is a reason why developers are hesitant to touch on more modern conflicts. Regardless of your political views, many innocent civilians have died in Iraq, and having a game set there involving the mowing down of terrorists would not do their suffering justice.

Sometimes fact and fiction need to be set clearly apart. I think its better to stick to blasting away the minions of hell or the infected hordes or whatever.



spirit@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:40 am :
evilartist wrote:
So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right?


No, he didn't say that at all. He said the compass is positioned within the safe zone (instead of at the very top) even in the PC version.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:00 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
I dont think adding occult elements to real flesh and blood struggles really does either side of the conflict justice. And "terrorist" is a contentious label. Its all in the mind, or rather in the minds of the propagandists. Not nearly as black and white as evil occult Nazi's, and even those are still people. I think there is a reason why developers are hesitant to touch on more modern conflicts. Regardless of your political views, many innocent civilians have died in Iraq, and having a game set there involving the mowing down of terrorists would not do their suffering justice.

Sometimes fact and fiction need to be set clearly apart. I think its better to stick to blasting away the minions of hell or the infected hordes or whatever.


Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.



whitewolf@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:25 pm :
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:04 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.


You are too limiting in what the game could be. All you are willing to offer is a one-sided storyline. I say make it possible to choose either side and let the virtual bullets fly and the power drills buzz! Reducing real-life conflict to a mere game is what is happening with absolutely every wargame being produced. There are still people alive who suffered through WW2, what about their families, what about their memories? Perhaps "Extreme Ping Pong" or "Sealy Posturpedic's Pillow Fight" is more up your alley for gaming. No lines need to be drawn, go play censor in some other world.



evilartist@Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:28 pm :
Brain Trepaning wrote:
Perhaps "Extreme Ping Pong" or "Sealy Posturpedic's Pillow Fight" is more up your alley for gaming. No lines need to be drawn, go play censor in some other world.

I don't know...professional ping pong players may not like that. They went through many hardships to get that spin just right. That emotional trauma just doesn't go away. :P



Mordenkainen@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:16 am :
evilartist wrote:
So...you're saying the bar compass is because of SD TVs, right?


What spirit said.

Quote:
Don't comment on Wolfenstein until you've actually played the game (why the hell haven't you played it yet? Don't listen to all the naysayers :P).


I plan on getting it, just have other games on my plate right now (plowing through SF4, going to pick up RE5 & Batman next).

Quote:
Aside from a veil faster-regen upgrade (yes, there is one), if they make it go too fast, people will easily abuse it. And trust me, I'm one of those people who would spam the veil just for convenience, even though I don't need it. The game would just be way too easy if I was able to use the veil so much more often. The regen may be really damn slow, but it keeps the gameplay somewhat balanced.


Thanks. From what I read the veil is somewhat of a polarising feature with gamers. I never did like the idea of a Zelda light/dark world shift in Wolfenstein but I'll keep an open mind for when I eventually get the game.



whitewolf@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:39 am :
Quote:
There are still people alive who suffered through WW2, what about their families, what about their memories?


The Second World War was a lot less contentious. Hitler wanted to forge his Third Reich, and all the allies agreed that it was necessary to stop him. The war was "justified", loosely speaking. With the war on terror, you have the left-right divide, the question of civil liberties, conflicting ideas about religion, ethnic tension, war crimes and torture on BOTH sides... the list goes on. At the very least, we risk politicising something that before was "just a game."

I find it funny that you you accuse me of advocating censorship when you are actively saying "fact and fiction need not be separated" and that you have no problem with adding fictional elements to a struggle unfolding as we speak. Isn't that what propaganda is all about, obfuscating the truth, blurring the line between fact and fiction. Better to leave a topic alone (what you refer to as "censorship") than have games become just another medium for spreading propaganda like Hollywood does.



Chr1s@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:33 pm :
Mordenkainen wrote:
I never did like the idea of a Zelda light/dark world shift in Wolfenstein but I'll keep an open mind for when I eventually get the game.


Sadly the veil justs feels like an half arsed idea, on paper it sounded great and had the potential to really add something fresh to the game but it would appear that after the first few levels the devs ran out of ideas on how to use it which led to you using the powers at predictable moments there after.



Brain Trepaning@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:05 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
The Second World War <censored> was "justified", loosely speaking. With the war on terror, <censored> the list goes on. At the very least, we risk <censored> something that before was "just a game."

I find it funny that you you accuse me of advocating censorship when you are actively <censored> spreading propaganda like Hollywood does.


I recently read a book called "Patient Zero" about Al Qaeda using zombies as weapons of war. I found it highly entertaining, believe it would make a fun video game and movie premise, and it in no way diminished the reality of the war fronts that exist today.



GUInterface@Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:55 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
With the war on terror, you have the left-right divide, the question of civil liberties, conflicting ideas about religion, ethnic tension, war crimes and torture on BOTH sides... the list goes on. At the very least, we risk politicising something that before was "just a game."


Some of these things happened in World War 2 as well, you know.



BloodRayne@Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:27 pm :
whitewolf wrote:
Quote:
Fact and fiction do not need to be separated except for those who should otherwise be cowering under their blankets at night sucking on a pacifist. Bring me hordes of mutant Al Qaeda brainwashed by a giant pus-leaking leech-monster, and you'll have my gaming dollars. Pixels do not equal people.


Ok, so fact and fiction don't need to be separated, and pixels dont equal people, so we can represent any real life combat as we choose.

Lets make a modern shooter set in Iraq, 2009. You play a US soldier, and you have to shoot down hordes of terrorists, wolfenstein style. I'm not even getting into the vagueness of the word terrorist here. (Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist once, by the Apartheid authorities).

So mutant Al Quaeda captures one of your squad mates, and performs hideous experiments on him ala quake 4, as typically happens in a sci-fi shooter. The level revolves around trying to rescue him. Considering people on both sides of the conflict have been tortured, are probably being tortured as we speak, dont you think such mixing of fact and fiction would be a bit disrespectful to the families of those serving in Iraq?

Don't you think reducing real-life conflict to a mere game you play with your mates on a Friday night is making light of a serious and tragic situation?

I'm all for realistic shooters, but clearly some line needs to be drawn in terms of how conflict is portrayed in games, and such modern day issues such as "the war on terror" that you propose making a game out of need to be treated with sensitivity.

Nonsense. That would mean that movies like The three Kings shouldn't be made (which is actually made to look realistic while it's very much not realistic). Not to mention all the Jag like TV shows and movies about Iraq, that praise the American Army higher than the pope. People are able to separate fact from fiction. If not, then they shouldn't be playing these games, nor should they be in contact with any media that does not portray the whole truth.

You and I know innocent people are being tortured due to the unbiased media out there. How much biased media is there? Do you really think CNN was giving accurate reports on Iraq? Let's talk about disrespect, then let's talk about the American Media and their portrayal of the truth.

The argument just doesn't stick.



spirit@Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:12 pm :
I think the problem with games like Wolfenstein is the same as with things on TV. I doubt that adults will think Wow I played this Wolfenstein game and it shows you what the Nazis were like! Guess they were evil but hey, they had some cool weapons 'n stuff!. I mean there's some really stupid ppl out there but not that stupid.

Children are another story ofc. If I had kids and my ~10yo daughter would tell me that she saw/played that Wolfenstein game at a friend of hers, I'd ask her what she thinks about the game and what she knows about the Nazis.



aardwolf@Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:04 pm :
I personally cant wait for the release of the game "6 days in Falluhah". :)